The Better Bilstein Ebay Coilover Thread
#2122
The banked turn entry...
#2126
We spend a mountain of time engineering spring combinations with round and flat wire, coupler designs, lengths, rates. It isn't just a change in rate that we are looking for throughout the stroke, it's specific rates at specific spots in the stroke that affect how the suspension works.
If you are on a tight budget, you can leave them out. If you want to maximize you set up, do some research and put high rate helpers in. This as opposed to zero rate tenders, since they don't affect spring rate.
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#2127
Hyperco CS100. Not worth putting further thought into it in the context of a budget bilstein set.
Reality of tender/helper springs in a bilstein setup with you know... sway bars... is that you won't be getting enough travel to worry about unseating the spring. (0 rate use), and the amount of stroke you get out of a helper spring unless you start doing some high level stuff that begs the question of "why do this with $400 shocks" isn't going to be noticeable between helper and main spring.
I'd argue that the main use of helpers in the scenario of some higher dollar Miata coilovers is first and foremost to act as a spring spacer, but that's for a different thread.
Reality of tender/helper springs in a bilstein setup with you know... sway bars... is that you won't be getting enough travel to worry about unseating the spring. (0 rate use), and the amount of stroke you get out of a helper spring unless you start doing some high level stuff that begs the question of "why do this with $400 shocks" isn't going to be noticeable between helper and main spring.
I'd argue that the main use of helpers in the scenario of some higher dollar Miata coilovers is first and foremost to act as a spring spacer, but that's for a different thread.
#2128
Nope.
Gigs of engineering data and hundreds of hours of road testing conclusively prove otherwise. It's okay to argue but bring facts, not just feelings.
The only reason to leave out high rate helpers is because they're not in the budget or you have too little stroke. The argument that sway bars keep the rear suspension from drooping is based on conjecture, not facts.
Gigs of engineering data and hundreds of hours of road testing conclusively prove otherwise. It's okay to argue but bring facts, not just feelings.
The only reason to leave out high rate helpers is because they're not in the budget or you have too little stroke. The argument that sway bars keep the rear suspension from drooping is based on conjecture, not facts.
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#2129
To be fair the Bilsteins are not perfectly valved for that spring rate. A bit too much low speed compression damping for street use and not enough high speed rebound damping for track use. The Bilstein uses the same basic valving front and rear but a Miata needs different valving front and rear.
So while not precisely ideal, the spring rates of the FM and Tein springs are closer than OEM or what's used in Spec Miata. After all is said and done though, they still have better damping than most <$1,000 aftermarket coilovers, which is why this thread exists
So while not precisely ideal, the spring rates of the FM and Tein springs are closer than OEM or what's used in Spec Miata. After all is said and done though, they still have better damping than most <$1,000 aftermarket coilovers, which is why this thread exists
#2130
None are "perfect" because the B4 valving isn't perfect. So don't overthink the whole matching rates to damper thing. Focus on getting the right rates, ride height, rake and sway bars for the tires you are using.
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#2132
I tossed up whether to go 350/250 or FM springs for ages. In the end I went FM because I'm lazy and there was less to think about. Springs sit nicely in the top hats without isolators and remain captive on full extension without helpers.
At the ride height they come with the bottoming isn't an issue with 25mm extended top hats. With the 350/250 setup you'd have the option to go lower, but you'd probably be on the bump stops a lot if you did, so you might not want to.
The whole idea behind going with this setup was the knowledge that I would be running around 340 tread wear tyres. My car is a daily and I live in rural Australia where the roads can be terrible. I like the way it rides and handles, but if you're planning to run stickier tyres it might not be for you.
At the ride height they come with the bottoming isn't an issue with 25mm extended top hats. With the 350/250 setup you'd have the option to go lower, but you'd probably be on the bump stops a lot if you did, so you might not want to.
The whole idea behind going with this setup was the knowledge that I would be running around 340 tread wear tyres. My car is a daily and I live in rural Australia where the roads can be terrible. I like the way it rides and handles, but if you're planning to run stickier tyres it might not be for you.
Last edited by Ven3li; 05-16-2021 at 08:10 AM.
#2133
Tried to search through this thread for some insight on a question I had but maybe my google-fu searching skills aren't as sharp; I'm currently in the middle of making some DIY Billies using the following:
-MSM Bilsteins w/ NB tophats
-Summit 7" 450/300 springs
-Integra speedthane bump stops
-ES isolators
-RideTech delrin washers
-Advanced-Autosports coilover sleeve kit
My question is, would running extended tophats with this set up on an '02 NB with stock 16" Enkeis be necessary, granted that I will be cutting the bumpstops to 30-36mm? Would cutting more off the bumpstop in order to not be riding on them be a no-no? And if tophats are necessary, would I be able to get away with just using them for the rear, or do I need them on all corners? Sorry for so many questions but I appreciate the time the DIY Billie gurus can spare for a noob like me. Thanks!
-MSM Bilsteins w/ NB tophats
-Summit 7" 450/300 springs
-Integra speedthane bump stops
-ES isolators
-RideTech delrin washers
-Advanced-Autosports coilover sleeve kit
My question is, would running extended tophats with this set up on an '02 NB with stock 16" Enkeis be necessary, granted that I will be cutting the bumpstops to 30-36mm? Would cutting more off the bumpstop in order to not be riding on them be a no-no? And if tophats are necessary, would I be able to get away with just using them for the rear, or do I need them on all corners? Sorry for so many questions but I appreciate the time the DIY Billie gurus can spare for a noob like me. Thanks!
#2134
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Since you plan to use stock 16in wheels I will assume this is for street use and won't see R compound rubber. You should be fine without the extended tophats IF the ride height isn't lowered too much. The rear will need them before the front, if at all.
#2136
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With those spring rates you will want extended tophats for anything less than 5.5 inch pinch weld height in the rear, from my own experience. My fenders are rolled and pulled so I didn't ever measure fender lip height when I was on Bilsteins.
#2138
I don't mean to beat a dead horse by posting in this thread but theres one thing I'm unsure of even after hours of reading and research.Someone is offering me a free set of 99 10AE billies. Is the max spring rate without revalving in the 350/250 or so range?
I'd like to maybe run 450/350 or so but from what I read, i would need custom revalve for this, correct?
I wouldn't mind getting a revalve job as the billies are free (although used, with 34k miles) but i can't seem to find who still does bilstein revalving these days.
I've search threads and many say bilstein doesn't do it anymore, fcm doesn't do it either. The only one I could find was Delta Vee and they seem to run about 250$ per shock at least, which really isn't in the budget range anymore.
Anyone know an affordable place to get the billies revalved? I'd love to know.
Also, the 5X racing billies diy kits they sell, are those custom valves? A lot of the kit run higher spring rates than i mentioned above
I'd like to maybe run 450/350 or so but from what I read, i would need custom revalve for this, correct?
I wouldn't mind getting a revalve job as the billies are free (although used, with 34k miles) but i can't seem to find who still does bilstein revalving these days.
I've search threads and many say bilstein doesn't do it anymore, fcm doesn't do it either. The only one I could find was Delta Vee and they seem to run about 250$ per shock at least, which really isn't in the budget range anymore.
Anyone know an affordable place to get the billies revalved? I'd love to know.
Also, the 5X racing billies diy kits they sell, are those custom valves? A lot of the kit run higher spring rates than i mentioned above