Steampipe manifold failure
#61
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
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I spent a good amount of time trying to come up with a brace solution for my setup. I couldn't come up with a good way to mount it to the turbo. And couldn't bring myself to weld on my brand new EFR. I'll revisit it in the fall when my turbo isn't fancy anymore.
#62
it's very rigid. super thick. we've discussed this eleventy billion times now, not sure why people still don't know about the msm brace lol
btw most (all?) oem turbocharged cars like the msm use something very similar. I'd love to see a version of it modified to work with the custom tubular bottom mount setups
btw most (all?) oem turbocharged cars like the msm use something very similar. I'd love to see a version of it modified to work with the custom tubular bottom mount setups
--Ferdi
#64
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For those concerned about the addition support causing extra load due to thermal expansion, you could try using an over sized hole and a proper length shoulder bolt. The brace would support the load and the shoulder bolt would keep the brace positioned, but without restraining it. The shoulder bolt needs to be long enough to that its not tightened down on the brace. All the torque should be on the shoulder to the turbo/bracket. We used the method on our cranes in place when we have to support an exhaust component but it needs to be able to move some.
#65
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For those concerned about the addition support causing extra load due to thermal expansion, you could try using an over sized hole and a proper length shoulder bolt. The brace would support the load and the shoulder bolt would keep the brace positioned, but without restraining it. The shoulder bolt needs to be long enough to that its not tightened down on the brace. All the torque should be on the shoulder to the turbo/bracket. We used the method on our cranes in place when we have to support an exhaust component but it needs to be able to move some.
#69
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I'd be wary of those, personally. After the issues I had with those fasteners on the TiAL/Garrett combo years ago, I'm not keen on adding any stress at all to those particular fasteners. I would lathe up a couple of custom water plugs for each side of the CHRA and grab from those.
#70
I'd be wary of those, personally. After the issues I had with those fasteners on the TiAL/Garrett combo years ago, I'm not keen on adding any stress at all to those particular fasteners. I would lathe up a couple of custom water plugs for each side of the CHRA and grab from those.
#71
Two more data points in support (har har!) of turbo support braces.
My LeMons car has done ~45 crapcan endurance races. It runs the stock Miata manifold, flipped upside-down, then braced with angle iron bits like so:
It's a little hard to tell, but that erector set you see above holds the weight of the turbo so the manifold is pretty much along for the ride. The manifold had ~120k miles on it before it was tasked for turbo duty. FWIW, the car is no slouch and is at the pointy end of the crapcan field.
When I built a different Miata, the green NA crazy *** dual purpose car, I had a more, uh, discreet brace made. It picks up a boss welded onto the turbine housing and ties it to the block:
This brace is made from stainless rod. The thinking with this geometry is that it will provide just a bit of "give" in the direction of the manifold's (304 weld el w/ short-ish runners) thermal expansion, acting like a very stiff diving board.
I've said it before but it bears repeating: the idea behind turbo support braces is a little different than "crane"-style supports - a rigid brace not only takes up the turbo's mass but also raises the natural frequency of the turbo/manifold/dp assembly so that it doesn't get shaken to pieces. Many factory turbo cars employ rigid braces. When done correctly, the brace picks up the turbo at the turbo+dp's center of mass. If you want to get super fancy, you can include springs to take up the thermal expansion a la AMG CLA45.
You'll see cranes used on race cars with long-runner manifolds; the idea being that the long runners will tend to grow more due to thermal expansion. The crane doesn't raise the natural frequency. It is solely to support the turbo's mass but allow two degrees of freedom for thermal expansion.
My LeMons car has done ~45 crapcan endurance races. It runs the stock Miata manifold, flipped upside-down, then braced with angle iron bits like so:
It's a little hard to tell, but that erector set you see above holds the weight of the turbo so the manifold is pretty much along for the ride. The manifold had ~120k miles on it before it was tasked for turbo duty. FWIW, the car is no slouch and is at the pointy end of the crapcan field.
When I built a different Miata, the green NA crazy *** dual purpose car, I had a more, uh, discreet brace made. It picks up a boss welded onto the turbine housing and ties it to the block:
This brace is made from stainless rod. The thinking with this geometry is that it will provide just a bit of "give" in the direction of the manifold's (304 weld el w/ short-ish runners) thermal expansion, acting like a very stiff diving board.
I've said it before but it bears repeating: the idea behind turbo support braces is a little different than "crane"-style supports - a rigid brace not only takes up the turbo's mass but also raises the natural frequency of the turbo/manifold/dp assembly so that it doesn't get shaken to pieces. Many factory turbo cars employ rigid braces. When done correctly, the brace picks up the turbo at the turbo+dp's center of mass. If you want to get super fancy, you can include springs to take up the thermal expansion a la AMG CLA45.
You'll see cranes used on race cars with long-runner manifolds; the idea being that the long runners will tend to grow more due to thermal expansion. The crane doesn't raise the natural frequency. It is solely to support the turbo's mass but allow two degrees of freedom for thermal expansion.
#72
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Two more data points in support (har har!) of turbo support braces.
My LeMons car has done ~45 crapcan endurance races. It runs the stock Miata manifold, flipped upside-down, then braced with angle iron bits like so:
It's a little hard to tell, but that erector set you see above holds the weight of the turbo so the manifold is pretty much along for the ride. The manifold had ~120k miles on it before it was tasked for turbo duty. FWIW, the car is no slouch and is at the pointy end of the crapcan field.
When I built a different Miata, the green NA crazy *** dual purpose car, I had a more, uh, discreet brace made. It picks up a boss welded onto the turbine housing and ties it to the block:
This brace is made from stainless rod. The thinking with this geometry is that it will provide just a bit of "give" in the direction of the manifold's (304 weld el w/ short-ish runners) thermal expansion, acting like a very stiff diving board.
I've said it before but it bears repeating: the idea behind turbo support braces is a little different than "crane"-style supports - a rigid brace not only takes up the turbo's mass but also raises the natural frequency of the turbo/manifold/dp assembly so that it doesn't get shaken to pieces. Many factory turbo cars employ rigid braces. When done correctly, the brace picks up the turbo at the turbo+dp's center of mass. If you want to get super fancy, you can include springs to take up the thermal expansion a la AMG CLA45.
You'll see cranes used on race cars with long-runner manifolds; the idea being that the long runners will tend to grow more due to thermal expansion. The crane doesn't raise the natural frequency. It is solely to support the turbo's mass but allow two degrees of freedom for thermal expansion.
My LeMons car has done ~45 crapcan endurance races. It runs the stock Miata manifold, flipped upside-down, then braced with angle iron bits like so:
It's a little hard to tell, but that erector set you see above holds the weight of the turbo so the manifold is pretty much along for the ride. The manifold had ~120k miles on it before it was tasked for turbo duty. FWIW, the car is no slouch and is at the pointy end of the crapcan field.
When I built a different Miata, the green NA crazy *** dual purpose car, I had a more, uh, discreet brace made. It picks up a boss welded onto the turbine housing and ties it to the block:
This brace is made from stainless rod. The thinking with this geometry is that it will provide just a bit of "give" in the direction of the manifold's (304 weld el w/ short-ish runners) thermal expansion, acting like a very stiff diving board.
I've said it before but it bears repeating: the idea behind turbo support braces is a little different than "crane"-style supports - a rigid brace not only takes up the turbo's mass but also raises the natural frequency of the turbo/manifold/dp assembly so that it doesn't get shaken to pieces. Many factory turbo cars employ rigid braces. When done correctly, the brace picks up the turbo at the turbo+dp's center of mass. If you want to get super fancy, you can include springs to take up the thermal expansion a la AMG CLA45.
You'll see cranes used on race cars with long-runner manifolds; the idea being that the long runners will tend to grow more due to thermal expansion. The crane doesn't raise the natural frequency. It is solely to support the turbo's mass but allow two degrees of freedom for thermal expansion.
#77
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I'd be wary of those, personally. After the issues I had with those fasteners on the TiAL/Garrett combo years ago, I'm not keen on adding any stress at all to those particular fasteners. I would lathe up a couple of custom water plugs for each side of the CHRA and grab from those.
Reinstalled with resbond and new safety wire, we'll see if that works.
But based on that, I 100% agree with Andrew here. Wouldn't put anything else there.
#80
Mine were safety wired, and I believe also inconel... they loosened. Not enough to come out of course due to the safety wire, but they lost torque and the turbo was able to rotate.
Reinstalled with resbond and new safety wire, we'll see if that works.
But based on that, I 100% agree with Andrew here. Wouldn't put anything else there.
Reinstalled with resbond and new safety wire, we'll see if that works.
But based on that, I 100% agree with Andrew here. Wouldn't put anything else there.
Which should prompt some thought - what is it about the Miata that makes it so hostile to turbo (and other) bits? You already know the answer...