ST4/TT4 Thread
#41
I don't think I'm that far out of the loop. Spec Hoosier is dumb any way you put it and will only serve to decrease participation. I'm not against spec tires when implemented in a decent fashion but they literally picked one of the most expensive tires, with the shortest lifespans, with a contingency program that only serves to reduce tire costs of the top one or two cars by 50% if they are lucky since it's now a BOGO contingency. In 245/40r15 the Toyo RR is exactly 300 dollars cheaper per set than Hoosier R7 and if you're getting 12 decent heat cycles instead of 8 decent heat cycles, tire costs on RR's are going to be about 50% of what you would need to be running Hoosiers. 1800 dollars per 24 decent heat cycles (two sets) on RR and 3600 dollars per 24 decent heat cycles (three sets) on R7.
I've seen the 80-125k builds and they're nuts but honestly they are outliers in the vast majority of regional participants. I consider my build over the top and hopefully competitive on a national level but it's still not even half the budget of some of these E46M3 dudes.
After reading the thread and seeing that they want to go to Hoosiers only for 2023 that honestly pisses me off, because it makes it that much harder to try to entice new drivers into race group. If they now have to buy Hoosiers just to try it after they spend a boat load of cash for things like a roll cage, HnR, fire system, it's going to stop people from trying. They might say that "oh serious racers know that the Hoosier game is reality" but the vast majority of "serious racers" started off as someone who dipped their toe in before they just jump into the deep end.
I don't like it.
And a ton of people at the regional level are going to be running Toyos. With the gaps in skill at regional events too the 1.6 modifier is going to be enough to give a better driver a fighting chance at beating Hoosier cars that may not be driven at quite the same level now as well and will start to change people's perception of how competitive you can be on non-hoosier offerings.
I've seen the 80-125k builds and they're nuts but honestly they are outliers in the vast majority of regional participants. I consider my build over the top and hopefully competitive on a national level but it's still not even half the budget of some of these E46M3 dudes.
After reading the thread and seeing that they want to go to Hoosiers only for 2023 that honestly pisses me off, because it makes it that much harder to try to entice new drivers into race group. If they now have to buy Hoosiers just to try it after they spend a boat load of cash for things like a roll cage, HnR, fire system, it's going to stop people from trying. They might say that "oh serious racers know that the Hoosier game is reality" but the vast majority of "serious racers" started off as someone who dipped their toe in before they just jump into the deep end.
I don't like it.
And a ton of people at the regional level are going to be running Toyos. With the gaps in skill at regional events too the 1.6 modifier is going to be enough to give a better driver a fighting chance at beating Hoosier cars that may not be driven at quite the same level now as well and will start to change people's perception of how competitive you can be on non-hoosier offerings.
Last edited by Arca_ex; 12-16-2021 at 04:59 AM.
#42
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I'd be surprised if they make ST4/TT4 into spec tire across the board and not just nationals. A front running build on a 1.6 modifier tire could certainly be REAL hard to pass in ST4. I think Hoosier will still be king in TT4(and TT5).
#43
https://prizes.drivenasa.com/hoosier...gency-program/
- A copy of a paid invoice is required and must accompany all redemption forms submitted. The maximum number of contingency tires that can be claimed is equivalent to the quantity of tires listed on a paid invoice, e.g. buy a set of four (4) Hoosier Tires and claim a maximum of four (4) contingency tires for that invoice. The invoice must be dated within 90 days prior to the event. Contingency awarded tires or random draw tires (i.e. no charge tires) will not be eligible for contingency.
#45
Spec Hoosier is dumb any way you put it and will only serve to decrease participation. I'm not against spec tires when implemented in a decent fashion but they literally picked one of the most expensive tires, with the shortest lifespans, with a contingency program that only serves to reduce tire costs of the top one or two cars by 50% if they are lucky since it's now a BOGO contingency. In 245/40r15 the Toyo RR is exactly 300 dollars cheaper per set than Hoosier R7 and if you're getting 12 decent heat cycles instead of 8 decent heat cycles, tire costs on RR's are going to be about 50% of what you would need to be running Hoosiers. 1800 dollars per 24 decent heat cycles (two sets) on RR and 3600 dollars per 24 decent heat cycles (three sets) on R7.
Originally Posted by Arca_ex
After reading the thread and seeing that they want to go to Hoosiers only for 2023 that honestly pisses me off, because it makes it that much harder to try to entice new drivers into race group. If they now have to buy Hoosiers just to try it after they spend a boat load of cash for things like a roll cage, HnR, fire system, it's going to stop people from trying.
With a turbo BP, there's no way I'm running TT5/6, so if I'm out of TT4, I'm out of NASA. NASAs race program is my only reason for stepping over from the other HPDE events I've been running for the last 7 years. If I'm not running TT, no reason to pay for additional memberships and put up with all the startup hassle just to run HPDE at events that are more crowded than where I'm currently running.
#46
Lurker in this thread as we're no longer in NASA ST/TT..
I wonder why NASA rules still favor Hoosier so strongly. Toyo can afford to not have any business from NASA I'm guessing. They can sell millions of all seasons to SUV owners just fine. OTOH Hoosiers business model for DOT radials is almost entirely dependent on NASA and SCCA road racing and to a lesser degree, VARA, BMWCCA, etc. SCCA street class went to 200tw a few years back so that market for A7's vanished. Hoosier is more vulnerable to a drop in demand for DOT radials if NASA rules were changed to favor Toyo. So I wonder what Hoosier pays NASA compared to what Toyo pays. Toyo is a title sponsor yet the rules still favor Hoosiers. Odd that.
/thread drift
I wonder why NASA rules still favor Hoosier so strongly. Toyo can afford to not have any business from NASA I'm guessing. They can sell millions of all seasons to SUV owners just fine. OTOH Hoosiers business model for DOT radials is almost entirely dependent on NASA and SCCA road racing and to a lesser degree, VARA, BMWCCA, etc. SCCA street class went to 200tw a few years back so that market for A7's vanished. Hoosier is more vulnerable to a drop in demand for DOT radials if NASA rules were changed to favor Toyo. So I wonder what Hoosier pays NASA compared to what Toyo pays. Toyo is a title sponsor yet the rules still favor Hoosiers. Odd that.
/thread drift
__________________
#47
Y’all are way out of the loop. Fast and front running ST4 cars are $80-125k builds. It’s essentially a spec E46M3 class. It’s fast and expensive and Hoosiers are absolutely the norm. Hoosiers are the norm in ST5 too btw, and they will still be at the front in 2022.
spoken as a former ST1-4 series director and contestant in 5 different regions over the last 5 years.
spoken as a former ST1-4 series director and contestant in 5 different regions over the last 5 years.
Basically - I don't want to spend money like a national-caliber driver in order to enter the class at all. Isn't that part of the spirit of amateur racing?
#48
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I honestly think they wrote "R7s only for ST4/TT4" into 2022 Nationals solely because of community support of it(on NASA's forum). ST1-3 and TT1-3 aren't required to run Hoosiers at nationals, which is the main reason why I think it was written in from client feedback.
I hope they don't make the Hoosier a spec tire nationally for ST4/TT4. Like y'all have said, running on other tires is key to bring in the numbers into ST/TT. I fully expect regional races to see Hoosiers vs Toyo/Maxxis/super200s, especially W2W.
NASA's rules certainly don't favor Hoosiers in 2022 and they have been changing the rules to help push out Hoosiers for years now.
I hope they don't make the Hoosier a spec tire nationally for ST4/TT4. Like y'all have said, running on other tires is key to bring in the numbers into ST/TT. I fully expect regional races to see Hoosiers vs Toyo/Maxxis/super200s, especially W2W.
NASA's rules certainly don't favor Hoosiers in 2022 and they have been changing the rules to help push out Hoosiers for years now.
#49
If NASA decides the shove through a spec R7 for ST4 across the whole organization, it's going to blow up the WERC enduros because most of the E1 teams were not running Hoosiers. That's a complete rethink for a lot of those teams for how their cars are built, and how they approach a 6 hour race. The WERC director is going to have an upheaval --and a significantly different rule book-- if they need to let people run RRs or 200TW on cars built to the "old" ST4 rules. I don't think it would be a positive change for the enduro program if they force all of E1 into that box.
#50
I'd suggest we all start posting in that thread...
https://community.drivenasa.com/topi...oday/#comments
https://community.drivenasa.com/topi...oday/#comments
#51
I honestly think they wrote "R7s only for ST4/TT4" into 2022 Nationals solely because of community support of it(on NASA's forum). ST1-3 and TT1-3 aren't required to run Hoosiers at nationals, which is the main reason why I think it was written in from client feedback.
I hope they don't make the Hoosier a spec tire nationally for ST4/TT4. Like y'all have said, running on other tires is key to bring in the numbers into ST/TT. I fully expect regional races to see Hoosiers vs Toyo/Maxxis/super200s, especially W2W.
NASA's rules certainly don't favor Hoosiers in 2022 and they have been changing the rules to help push out Hoosiers for years now.
I hope they don't make the Hoosier a spec tire nationally for ST4/TT4. Like y'all have said, running on other tires is key to bring in the numbers into ST/TT. I fully expect regional races to see Hoosiers vs Toyo/Maxxis/super200s, especially W2W.
NASA's rules certainly don't favor Hoosiers in 2022 and they have been changing the rules to help push out Hoosiers for years now.
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