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So from what I've read aside from depowered rack the fix to not puking out power steering fluid is a cooler, or different fluid.
So my question is, is the fluid foaming from getting too warm, or is velocity? From the chasebays video it's a common issue in BMW's, S chassis, and probably anything else with power steering.
They made a Power steering resevoir that simply slows the velocity of the fluid down when it enters. I did a search for this on here but I just saw a bunch of de power your rack stuff.
In the video he said in some "extreme" race applications they measured up to 120psi in the return line. I doubt a miata would get there but it made sense. I felt if I switched out my fluid to redline, or something along those lines, and used this it might fix everthing all together?
This is their description.Countless hours of research and development were put into our newest Power Steering Reservoir. This isn’t as simple as putting 2 fittings on a fluid container and calling it a day. It is far more complex. The smaller fitting on the Reservoir is the fluid return from the rack. It can be sent back at pressures up to 120psi. When that hits the fluid in the reservoir it can cause extreme foaming aeration if not properly slowed down and directed. The more the steering and RPM on the car, the higher the pressures will be. This is also what commonly causes the spillover through the cap under heavy use. Most people think their fluid is boiling over when this happens but in most cases it is not…just turbulence.
We have put serious engineering time into the internal design to negate this aeration and spillover entirely. The performance of this Power Steering Reservoir has gotten rave reviews from our customers. In the reservoir photos you can see a "chimney" inside, there is a multi-layer design within this chimney. We can't give away all of our secrets, but just know you won't have any aeration or spillover issues. Between on track testing and computer fluid dynamics, we were able to slow down 120psi to 12psi in 2 inches of fluid motion. Thats just 2 of the baffles, it doesn’t end there.
Power Steering is a loop hydraulic system so it needs to be vented. The cap has a unique baffle design to block fluid from pushing out the vent. Go to any road race/drift/rally event and look at all the factory (and most aftermarket) power steering reservoirs. By the end of the day there is spillover all around the reservoir. It was our goal to be the 1 in 100 reservoirs to have no spillover. We are proud to say; that goal has been met.
Before I install my de powered rack I think I'm going to give this a shot. If this has been discussed before I apologize.
Putting a dedicated cooler in the return line is a must do as well.
Getting rid of heat as important as aeration of fluid.
The "loop" that Mazda created for the cars is NOT enough for a serious build.
If your PS pump see double the RPM of the stock system reducing the pump speed is important as well.
Bigger pully on pump, smaller pully on crank is common. (not on Miatas, everyone seems to just remove this stuff)
Another "trick" commonly employed is to change the output pressure at the pump for higher RPM use.
This is a requirement when putting a gen 3 GM small block into a BMW.
The output pressures are commonly REDUCED.
I used this cooler on a MSM I did a bunch of work too.
/www.summitracing.com/parts/der-13200
It's a balancing act, reduced pump output, extra cooling of the fluid, and a decent non-foaming reservoir all work together...
I believe in PS on a street car that multiple people will use.
I wouldn't use PS on a dedicated track Miata.
While I'm at it I will purchase that cooler and hope for the best. I ran old Honda's for a long time without power steering, and I always wished I had it. It might not make sense but I enjoy the feel when I'm driving around the back roads, and slow turns. The car is slowly turning into a dedicated actual track car but I do want to give this a go.
I am seeing some things about electric kits, but I think the only other way to go is depowered for me. I would really like to drive one before I commit tho.
The electric kits are WAY cool. Especially the one with the "volume control" ****.
It's definitely "The Way" for a really serious car that no longer has room for the stock PS stuff.
They're a little bit pricey but it gets rid of EVERY THING in the engine compartment.
30 years ago PS coolers were not a "thing"
Now pretty much all new cars have them.
If I had a set up that produced 120 psi on the return something would be WRONG!
Normal return pressures should be between 10-30 psi. anything more will tend to blow off the return lines which are normally just slipped on and clamped.
If they were really running that high a pressure I'd see fuel injection type connectors on the returns and I haven't...
Never hold a PS system to "lock" against the stop for any significant amount of time. This can produce 1000+ psi on the high side and rapidly (10 seconds) overheats the fluid.
Holding to "lock' for less than 3 seconds is an EXCELLENT way to leak test the high side of a PS system and I'll do that first when trying to diagnose a leak.
A tiny leak during normal operation can becomes a volcano at lock.
Makes it easy to see and if the car owner is with you when you do this it's an excellent "sales" tool...
Depowered works perfectly fine at any speed above 20 mph with any tire.
Depowered work fine with standard width tires at any speed.
Depowered with serious tires is a handful at slow speeds and in parking lots, especially if your "elfin" Wife is driving the car.
I married a magical Elf 37 years ago, She's tiny with no real upper body strength and She drives all my street cars so PS is a requirement for me...
LOL magical ELF got me. I have all these thoughts in my head about the right thing to do. I am on a 225 nitto nt01 right now, but do plan on going to 245's in the future. I think I will add the cooler, and reservoir for now and see where it gets me. I really do appreciate your info. I miss forums so much. I was on Honda-tech, and ef-honda for years and it was nothing but good info 90% of the time.
Don't use that part number I provided. It might be wrong. Verify your return hose size and purchase a thin wide cooler that fits your line.
I was just trying to come up with what looked like what I used. Maybe I can fine the part number that I used but it was 4 years ago.
I mounted it underneath the upper radiator support, hanging "downwards" from a couple of 6X1 double studs rubber isolators (Mercedes air filter housing hardware)
It's right in front of the radiator in sort of a poor flow area but it has 15X the cooling capacity of the loop and I was able to dispense with said loop and all of it's mounting hardware.
I was "making room" for an intercooler.
I just cut the aluminum lines and slid transmission rated cooler hose on. I really wanted to "bead" the ends of the aluminum lines but didn't have access to a good "beader".
If it has more than 30psi in the return it would have blown a line off and slimed the car.
Hasn't happened in 4 years...
I haven't tightened the clamps in 4 years either. This conversation we are having reminded me and next time car is here (SuperMiata BBK install) I will check these clamps.
The car is a 2004 MSM that is "beaten like a step child" on the street but will NOT see track time.
The age and experience of the average forum member is what makes a forum good or bad.
I couldn't stand the Honda Forums as I saw way to many young guys who thought they were "Smokey Yunik" and actually they were "Smokey the Bear".
I coined a name for these guys.
Honda Punks!
The BEST forums that are UNBELIEVABLE accurate are the RV forums. All the guys are OLD, they have lots of money, they are technically competent, and they share their info without regard.
Makes fixing a 250K motorhome SO MUCH easier.
One of my best customers has a Millennium Prevost that with an MSRP of 2.5M...
This is the ONLY Miata forum for guys that actually modify their car. We still have way to many "noise generators" but we also have quiet a few " thermonuclear wolves" who are at the pinnacle of Miata performance.
It's these "Wolves" that make this place my home...
I very much noticed the difference in the amount of helpful information on this forum compared to others that I have been on. It was weird taking myself away from the honda game (bough my first crx in 2001) and always thought it was all I would ever own. I drove a relativly stock miata pads,wheels/tires, coilovers and I was hooked. I sold my track car, and went full miata.
I found a kit that some youtube dude used that looked similar and I went with that. It was pretty cheap, and I'm hoping that it will do the job.
Your hatch brought back a memory!
30 years ago I was practicing launches at the local 1/8 mile track with a buddies EF Si hatch that was absolutely stock.
He was racing 240Z that I helped him build and I borrowed the hatch just to "screw around".
This car was his radio competition car and had an extra couple hundred pounds of stereo crap in it.
I lined up against Mitsubishi Eclipse 4wd turbo who I thought would blow me away.
I beat him.
In the "radio car".
Multiple times!
I didn't think it was fast but it was faster than that Eclipse that night.
He was shocked as hell when he asked "What have you done to it?"
"Added weight!"
Great fun!
I very much noticed the difference in the amount of helpful information on this forum compared to others that I have been on. It was weird taking myself away from the honda game (bough my first crx in 2001) and always thought it was all I would ever own.
Im like the opposite. I was a "miata guy" from before I could legally drive. Started messing with hondas and now I havent had a miata in a long time. I still lurk this forum though because I genuinely think the tech here is better than any car forum Ive ever found. For all the people building crazy fast hondas, there is nothing but nonsense on the forums. Its hard to even find something as simple as back to back objective dyno tests on places like honda-tech. MTnet is very scientific and data driven in comparison.
Im like the opposite. I was a "miata guy" from before I could legally drive. Started messing with hondas and now I havent had a miata in a long time. I still lurk this forum though because I genuinely think the tech here is better than any car forum Ive ever found. For all the people building crazy fast hondas, there is nothing but nonsense on the forums. Its hard to even find something as simple as back to back objective dyno tests on places like honda-tech. MTnet is very scientific and data driven in comparison.
Honda's are a lot of fun. I have been around them in way way or another since I was 16. That's 21 years! But it was time for something different. I love all the cars. I just wish I could keep one of everything.
I don't understand the aversion to just running EHPAS on track cars.
HPAS pumps are a real compromise on track, they are sized to be able to flow enough to dry steer a car at idle, but we want them to not overheat at nearly 10x that RPM while asking comparatively much less actual duty from them. Also, the NA HPAS pump is a disaster for saturation (ie you are asking too much of it and it will run out of assist mid corner) on track with 9Js+, and even the NB pump still has issues. Furthermore, if you need a cooler, that means you're dissipating a significant amount of power as heat, power that isn't reaching the wheels.
Full EPAS isn't really a great solution either because the motor inertia is coupled to the steering system, ie your steering system inertia and friction increase massively, so even if your steering efforts are nice, the actual feedback is poor.
I don't understand the aversion to just running EHPAS on track cars.
HPAS pumps are a real compromise on track, they are sized to be able to flow enough to dry steer a car at idle, but we want them to not overheat at nearly 10x that RPM while asking comparatively much less actual duty from them. Also, the NA HPAS pump is a disaster for saturation (ie you are asking too much of it and it will run out of assist mid corner) on track with 9Js+, and even the NB pump still has issues. Furthermore, if you need a cooler, that means you're dissipating a significant amount of power as heat, power that isn't reaching the wheels.
Full EPAS isn't really a great solution either because the motor inertia is coupled to the steering system, ie your steering system inertia and friction increase massively, so even if your steering efforts are nice, the actual feedback is poor.
Haven't really thought about Electro-Hydraulic Power Assisted Steering (EHPAS) for a serious car before but he's RIGHT on all counts.
I'm starting to see failures on full EPAS systems now, they can be a bitch to fix.
They VASTLY increase steering effort when assist fails. Many women cannot steer their Hyundai/Kia when this stuff breaks.
The "packaging" is nice but I'm going to agree with Tran 100%!
EHPAS will require dedicated space in the engine compartment but all the bad aspects of both pure hydraulic and pure electric can be eliminated with EHPAS.
No coolers, no fancy anti-foaming reservoirs, no pump/belt on engine. Only thing they needs is decent electricity.
Done right it should be able to use the stock PS rack.
I'd want mine speed sensitive but that should be easy to do.
02-24-2021, 10:26 AM
Chasebays power steering fluid resevoir.
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