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need help with 96 and MS3X, no start issue

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Old 04-02-2018, 01:15 AM
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Default need help with 96 and MS3X, no start issue

background
car: 96 engine, 96 harness, 99 throttle
wideband: AEM X-series
ecu: used MS3 MS3X
harness: DIY, followed Trubokitty (https://trubokitty.com/#/ms3xassembly)

problem: car will crank, has fuel, sounds like have spark because sometimes the exhaust shots explosion when try to start it

but it will not start or idle

One thing I am confused is the crank sensor wiring. According to trubokitty, 4F is the crank sensor in but according to factory wiring diagram, 4F is for cam sensor.
On 96 factory diagram, 4E and 4H are for crank sensor but I don't know which one should be connected to MS24 pin.

please let me know if there is anything I can provide to help solve the problem

thanks in advance


EDIT
I tried to change the trigger offset to 0 and use fixed timing at 10 degree (my car was 14 advanced by turning CAS so now it should still be 14 degree )

now it still does not start BUT sounds better because it tries to start and no more flames.

I attached the tune and composite log here

MS3X V3.0,
1.4.1 Firmware
main board R54 only gets 2.44v
ms3x board R17 gets 2.41v
Attached Thumbnails need help with 96 and MS3X, no start issue-qq-20180402002211.png  
Attached Files
File Type: msq
2018-04-02_01.32.40.msq (285.5 KB, 74 views)
File Type: csv
2018-04-02_02.20.30.csv (30.1 KB, 165 views)

Last edited by loveSONG769; 04-02-2018 at 03:15 AM.
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Old 04-02-2018, 01:17 AM
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also, in tunerstudio it says not RPM syned and lost sync counter
Attached Thumbnails need help with 96 and MS3X, no start issue-qq-20180402002317.png  
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Old 04-02-2018, 01:57 AM
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well, I think I found the answer about the crank sensor, this explained why there is no connection from ms3 to crank sensor

Originally Posted by Joe Perez
In '95.5 - '97, the crank sensor was used only for misfire detection, while the CAS was used for the staging and timing of both the fuel injectors and the ignition coils. The CAS in all NA cars outputs two signals, which are conceptually comparable to combined crank and cam sensors in the NBs. One signal is four evenly-spaced pulses per cam revolution (one pulse per ignition / injection event) and the other has two uneven pulses, from which absolute engine position is determined.) Thus, an NA can derive both the timing of the engine as well as the phse of the engine from just that one sensor, with the disadvantage of having some jitter introduced by the cam belt.

From '99 onwards, the crank sensor became the timing reference for fuel injection and ignition, while the cam sensor provided the staging reference (eg: so the ECU can tell which crank pulse corresponds to which cylinder.)

On the VVT cars, the cam sensor additionally allowed the ECU to judge the exact angular position of the intake cam, by comparing the phase angle of the cam sensor to the crank sensor.
still, the car does not start... I am also using the basemap from trubokitty BTW

need some advices...
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Old 04-02-2018, 02:02 AM
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another guess

my car was running 14 degree advanced before I install the MS3

in the Tunerstodio I found in ignition option/wheel decoder, the trigger angle/offset is 5.5

will this make my ignition timing to 19.5 degree? should I change it to 0?

since my car shoots flame sometimes when I try to start, it makes me think the ignition timing is way off
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Old 04-02-2018, 07:25 AM
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14° before should be around 6° trigger angle offset. Just go to testmode and test each spark and inj. If you have crank signal and the engine is not starting raise air and fuel.
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Old 04-02-2018, 11:09 AM
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you're not getting any activity from the CAM signal (that's coming on the expander board).

did you tune the posts on the expander? did you add the s12 to js9 jumper?
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Old 04-02-2018, 06:42 PM
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yes I did.
and problem solved
at the first place I did not know the missing was CAM
someone told me the this as you did too. then I found a misplaced wire in expansion harness
now the car starts and idles

thank you
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Old 04-02-2018, 07:21 PM
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Old 04-03-2018, 03:06 AM
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so I took my car out for the first drive after turbo and MS3X

as I said, it starts and idles fine and I do not see any issue on the TS gauges

but when I start to drive it, it accelerates like pulse, If you want me to describe it, the power is like ------.....------.....------......------

and I can see a SYNC fault turned red

lost sync counter says 2

I then did a composite log. please see the attachment.

hope you can help me on this issue too.

it feels like sometimes the engine does not fire

Oh, I do need to mention that my car was 14 degree advanced when I had stock ECU. Could this be an issue? I also attached my tune file and hope it helps

also as I said in the beginning, I have a 96 engine but using 99 throttle. I don't know if it matters since I did not change anything in the basemap which was for a pure 96
Attached Files
File Type: msq
ms3x_94-97_1.4.1 (1).msq (274.8 KB, 81 views)
File Type: csv
2018-04-03_02.50.04.csv (274.3 KB, 127 views)
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Old 04-03-2018, 12:39 PM
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Lock the timing in TS and verify with a timing light like you are supposed to do in the instructions.
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Old 04-03-2018, 12:48 PM
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I see no loss of sync in that composite log. cant read the datalog here right now.
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Old 04-03-2018, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Braineack
I see no loss of sync in that composite log. cant read the datalog here right now.
i check my timing and set it to 10 degree.
No help. Still surges as crazy.

Is is there anything you can recommend me to check? Or anything I can upload here to help identify the issue?

Thanks.
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Old 04-03-2018, 10:19 PM
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I did a log when I was driving

when it runs rough, the AFR gauge shows 18-22, which makes me think it misfires due to over lean

hope the log can help a bit
Attached Files
File Type: msl
2018-04-03_21.20.21.msl (1.85 MB, 110 views)
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Old 04-04-2018, 11:03 AM
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so add fuel...

and tune your accel-pump
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