ITT: MS3X VVT settings and tuning
#121
the weirdest part about all of this, is the difference between perfect VVT operation and crazy sporadic jigsaw looking jerkiness is....................NOTHING
Absolutely nothing is changed between the different runs, yet sometimes it works perfect as you can see, and sometimes it looks like its having a seizure.
Can the cam PHYSICALLY advance and retard that fast and hard? I doubt it. Y'all think its a cam sensor going out or something? I dunno. I'm totally open for suggestions .
PS: oh and 1 last thing - sometimes it doesn't show as working at all. Like the gauge will show 0 no matter what. Then it works. Then it doesn't. Then it works sometimes.
Its so weird
Absolutely nothing is changed between the different runs, yet sometimes it works perfect as you can see, and sometimes it looks like its having a seizure.
Can the cam PHYSICALLY advance and retard that fast and hard? I doubt it. Y'all think its a cam sensor going out or something? I dunno. I'm totally open for suggestions .
PS: oh and 1 last thing - sometimes it doesn't show as working at all. Like the gauge will show 0 no matter what. Then it works. Then it doesn't. Then it works sometimes.
Its so weird
Uncheck "Range Check Measured Angles", you'll probably get something crazy like 340 degrees. The code, in it's infinite wisdom, while understanding that sometimes you'll drift into the negative territory, they don't assume symmetry. They think you're more likely to see +320 degrees than you are to see -5.5 degrees.
So if it sees the cam go 0, -1, -2, -3, -4, -5 it tells the algorithm you're suddenly at +300 degrees, and tries to retard. It sets everything else wrong.
Basically, reset your upper and lower limits, it should fix it. Then, please add a voice to the thread on MSforums: Abe's VVT Bitchfest Thread and tell them you've had the same issue. My own feeling the the gauge should be symmetric about the midpoint of your range. Anyway, it would be nice not to see ridiculous behavior when it's a few degrees out from where it should be.
#122
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (33)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: atlanta-ish
Posts: 12,659
Total Cats: 134
What kind of differences do you do on the VVT table with a boosted application - I am especially interested if 949racing could chime in on this - as my Trisha project is in the near future running a VVT (already in the car) with a C30-74 Rotrex (just missing some small bits). So - something you guys already have done - watching your Mental project with interest. Although my engine is nowhere as sophisticated as the engine in Mental... ;-)
Thanks!
Thanks!
#123
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (33)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: atlanta-ish
Posts: 12,659
Total Cats: 134
I'll let you find out and bring my by the shop sometime. I wanted to show up with a handful of accelerators but the ones I was looking at were digital only, so I think I'll just pick up a couple of the ones Jason was talking about.
Dearest 18psi - I've been calling on the forums for some change, as usual no one is very receptive there.
Uncheck "Range Check Measured Angles", you'll probably get something crazy like 340 degrees. The code, in it's infinite wisdom, while understanding that sometimes you'll drift into the negative territory, they don't assume symmetry. They think you're more likely to see +320 degrees than you are to see -5.5 degrees.
So if it sees the cam go 0, -1, -2, -3, -4, -5 it tells the algorithm you're suddenly at +300 degrees, and tries to retard. It sets everything else wrong.
Basically, reset your upper and lower limits, it should fix it. Then, please add a voice to the thread on MSforums: Abe's VVT Bitchfest Thread and tell them you've had the same issue. My own feeling the the gauge should be symmetric about the midpoint of your range. Anyway, it would be nice not to see ridiculous behavior when it's a few degrees out from where it should be.
Dearest 18psi - I've been calling on the forums for some change, as usual no one is very receptive there.
Uncheck "Range Check Measured Angles", you'll probably get something crazy like 340 degrees. The code, in it's infinite wisdom, while understanding that sometimes you'll drift into the negative territory, they don't assume symmetry. They think you're more likely to see +320 degrees than you are to see -5.5 degrees.
So if it sees the cam go 0, -1, -2, -3, -4, -5 it tells the algorithm you're suddenly at +300 degrees, and tries to retard. It sets everything else wrong.
Basically, reset your upper and lower limits, it should fix it. Then, please add a voice to the thread on MSforums: Abe's VVT Bitchfest Thread and tell them you've had the same issue. My own feeling the the gauge should be symmetric about the midpoint of your range. Anyway, it would be nice not to see ridiculous behavior when it's a few degrees out from where it should be.
#124
Sure! It's the behavior that it exhibits when you're out of range for whatever reason. There's really no reason to behave at 50 degrees OVER advanced, but fall apart at 5 degrees under....
Anyway, it caused very odd behavior in my case which took the forums weeks to figure out because it's non-intuitive.
Anyway, it caused very odd behavior in my case which took the forums weeks to figure out because it's non-intuitive.
#125
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (33)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: atlanta-ish
Posts: 12,659
Total Cats: 134
Sure! It's the behavior that it exhibits when you're out of range for whatever reason. There's really no reason to behave at 50 degrees OVER advanced, but fall apart at 5 degrees under....
Anyway, it caused very odd behavior in my case which took the forums weeks to figure out because it's non-intuitive.
Anyway, it caused very odd behavior in my case which took the forums weeks to figure out because it's non-intuitive.
#126
Yessir. Rather, I'd slipped the cam a tooth after a timing belt job. But the code wouldn't show it because it was limited to -5*, and it acts weird when you're out of range. My feeling on PID control (which doesn't work on pretty much ANY of the MS's control stuff) is that if you're below target you go up, and if you're above target, you go down.
This has been a decade's worth of contention between the coders and I - and since they now don't release source code for so long as to make it irrelevant, there's really no point in fighting it.
I thought if I played nice and said I'll do it your way, they'd at least help me to get the idle working, but they are still ignoring it no matter how much I ask. It's a class in psychology to get a straight answer out of them and I've pretty much just given up.
I feel like it's always a pissing match with who's smarter, instead of "how can we fix what's wrong with the code, and/or how can we explain to you how to make your car run as advertised with the code that's available". I'm not interesting in "being right" and I'll wear a t-shirt that says "The guys who right the MS code are smarter than me and satisfy women better", if they'll just make my car stop stalling.
All that said - yeah, when you're more than 5 degrees below your target, you get non-sense numbers and the controls are nonsense as well. If you get weird extreme-to-extreme variations, check to make sure you set your limits right.
This has been a decade's worth of contention between the coders and I - and since they now don't release source code for so long as to make it irrelevant, there's really no point in fighting it.
I thought if I played nice and said I'll do it your way, they'd at least help me to get the idle working, but they are still ignoring it no matter how much I ask. It's a class in psychology to get a straight answer out of them and I've pretty much just given up.
I feel like it's always a pissing match with who's smarter, instead of "how can we fix what's wrong with the code, and/or how can we explain to you how to make your car run as advertised with the code that's available". I'm not interesting in "being right" and I'll wear a t-shirt that says "The guys who right the MS code are smarter than me and satisfy women better", if they'll just make my car stop stalling.
All that said - yeah, when you're more than 5 degrees below your target, you get non-sense numbers and the controls are nonsense as well. If you get weird extreme-to-extreme variations, check to make sure you set your limits right.
#129
OMEX 600 ECU and VVT tuner
Noob' here.
Fine forum this, very high quality technical inputs, impressive to say the least. There are some really off the wall Miata/MX5 sites/FB pages/Forums out there
I have a 90 Mk1 fitted with 1.8 VVT/6 speed etc. 421, induction kit etc and want to add a DIYAUTO tuner piggyback. All I have read is pretty impressive when compared to an off/on/off standalone switching as in the OMEX.
What is the current best starting point map for this unit?
Thanks
Peter
Fine forum this, very high quality technical inputs, impressive to say the least. There are some really off the wall Miata/MX5 sites/FB pages/Forums out there
I have a 90 Mk1 fitted with 1.8 VVT/6 speed etc. 421, induction kit etc and want to add a DIYAUTO tuner piggyback. All I have read is pretty impressive when compared to an off/on/off standalone switching as in the OMEX.
What is the current best starting point map for this unit?
Thanks
Peter
#130
Noob' here.
Fine forum this, very high quality technical inputs, impressive to say the least. There are some really off the wall Miata/MX5 sites/FB pages/Forums out there
I have a 90 Mk1 fitted with 1.8 VVT/6 speed etc. 421, induction kit etc and want to add a DIYAUTO tuner piggyback. All I have read is pretty impressive when compared to an off/on/off standalone switching as in the OMEX.
What is the current best starting point map for this unit?
Thanks
Peter
Fine forum this, very high quality technical inputs, impressive to say the least. There are some really off the wall Miata/MX5 sites/FB pages/Forums out there
I have a 90 Mk1 fitted with 1.8 VVT/6 speed etc. 421, induction kit etc and want to add a DIYAUTO tuner piggyback. All I have read is pretty impressive when compared to an off/on/off standalone switching as in the OMEX.
What is the current best starting point map for this unit?
Thanks
Peter
What is it that constrains your build?
#131
I have an expensive nearly fully functioned mapped OMEX ECU that just needs a VVT controller added on. Omex, for those not familiar would be the go-to Ford VTEC/EcoBoost ECU in Europe. Just does not have proper VVT/VTEC/VVC control, add it in seems the way to go to me!
PS I forgot it is Labour Day stateside today!!
PS I forgot it is Labour Day stateside today!!
Last edited by Pedronomix; 09-07-2015 at 03:00 PM.
#132
Ah. Yeah, there may be better folks to ask than me! From what I've heard, folks like the one they make.
As far as a map, DIY likely has something, but if not, the one I used from earlier in this thread seems to be awesome - though with MS's dubious idle control, it seems to be more trouble than it's worth under like 1200 rpm. I'd try what's here, but if that doesn't idle well, you could flatten it out down there. Then again, having a FIRST generation aftermarket oil pump gearset from Boundry engineering, I'm not sure I get full/consistent pressure at low RPM so that could be part of my problem.
Things got a lot better when I put my cam trigger wheel on, but I've yet to make a proper "product" out of it yet. :-)
As far as a map, DIY likely has something, but if not, the one I used from earlier in this thread seems to be awesome - though with MS's dubious idle control, it seems to be more trouble than it's worth under like 1200 rpm. I'd try what's here, but if that doesn't idle well, you could flatten it out down there. Then again, having a FIRST generation aftermarket oil pump gearset from Boundry engineering, I'm not sure I get full/consistent pressure at low RPM so that could be part of my problem.
Things got a lot better when I put my cam trigger wheel on, but I've yet to make a proper "product" out of it yet. :-)
#133
I have an expensive nearly fully functioned mapped OMEX ECU that just needs a VVT controller added on. Omex, for those not familiar would be the go-to Ford VTEC/EcoBoost ECU in Europe. Just does not have proper VVT/VTEC/VVC control, add it in seems the way to go to me!
PS I forgot it is Labour Day stateside today!!
PS I forgot it is Labour Day stateside today!!
should work fine as far as i can tell. All the vvtuner really needs is a signal from your cam and crank sensor and it should work. I use vvtuner along side my oem ecu to pass smog on my vvt swapped 99. I'm not sure if there is any fundamental difference between the 01+ cam and crank signals that would require different settings...
#134
The crank trigger wheels are identical from 99-06 - I believe they even used the same crank trigger as far back as 95 or something.
The camshaft is a LITTLE different between the NB1 and NB2 - the cam's "doublet" is centered opposite the singlet on the NB1 while it's offset such that the first tooth lines up across from the singlet's tooth on the NB2.
If you want to run the stock ECU I think you'll be ok, as with the cams on the right tooth it'll never cross - I've seen some camshaft sensors which don't like the VVT cam's trigger wheel, but so far the ones specifically sold for Miata's behave till they cook.
The camshaft is a LITTLE different between the NB1 and NB2 - the cam's "doublet" is centered opposite the singlet on the NB1 while it's offset such that the first tooth lines up across from the singlet's tooth on the NB2.
If you want to run the stock ECU I think you'll be ok, as with the cams on the right tooth it'll never cross - I've seen some camshaft sensors which don't like the VVT cam's trigger wheel, but so far the ones specifically sold for Miata's behave till they cook.
#136
Depending on your software, you should be fine. It's easy enough to figure out - put 12V on the soleniod, that'll advance the cam fully. If your ECU is ok with that, nothing the VVT controller can do will make it any worse than that. You'll probably have to manage the throttle to keep it running, but a few "full advance, full retard" cycles will tell you quickly if it's working.
You MAY have to move your missing tooth to a "safe" spot that the cam never crosses - that just depends on how the code on your ECU works. I run a similar set up (36-2, though 36-1 works just as well if not better I think) and a custom cam trigger.
You MAY have to move your missing tooth to a "safe" spot that the cam never crosses - that just depends on how the code on your ECU works. I run a similar set up (36-2, though 36-1 works just as well if not better I think) and a custom cam trigger.
#138
It's an "advance from fully retarded" that's more or less consistent across all the motors. The little timing wheel on the back of the cams isn't keyed - I don't know to what degree the cam can be phased relative to that - but everyone seems to have a few degrees of variance in their set ups.
In short - the offset table is right, but you may need to move the whole thing some small amount to account for your particular "zero". When I knocked off the OEM wheel and put on my own, it was the same deal - I kept the table and just moved the "0" in software and got all my timing back.
I think this post of mine has the best table - but read it carefully to be sure.
https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquir...2/#post1036306
In short - the offset table is right, but you may need to move the whole thing some small amount to account for your particular "zero". When I knocked off the OEM wheel and put on my own, it was the same deal - I kept the table and just moved the "0" in software and got all my timing back.
I think this post of mine has the best table - but read it carefully to be sure.
https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquir...2/#post1036306
#140
Pretty much yes. :-) And, to a lesser degree, timing.
You can also set up the injections to be timed relative to the cam position - but I'm not sure there's a way for your two boxes to talk about that, right?
If you could set it up to leave it full retard for the first few seconds you're running, I think you'd find that makes it start better. I'd love to do it on mine - it's struggling, sometimes, to control the cam before full oil pressure is established - and I worry that that oil draws from the rest of the motor's supply. Probably nothing. :-)
As an aside: Did you slip your cam a tooth? When I built mine (before I had VVT control) I did, to get the cam in a SANE spot. For 301 hp I figured you'd have something SOMETHING right - so I wonder how you got around it. :-)
You can also set up the injections to be timed relative to the cam position - but I'm not sure there's a way for your two boxes to talk about that, right?
If you could set it up to leave it full retard for the first few seconds you're running, I think you'd find that makes it start better. I'd love to do it on mine - it's struggling, sometimes, to control the cam before full oil pressure is established - and I worry that that oil draws from the rest of the motor's supply. Probably nothing. :-)
As an aside: Did you slip your cam a tooth? When I built mine (before I had VVT control) I did, to get the cam in a SANE spot. For 301 hp I figured you'd have something SOMETHING right - so I wonder how you got around it. :-)