CustomESP

Hi all, I installed an MS3Pro on my 2004 MS Miata with FM Little Enchilada Kit and 725cc Injectors, and the car idled rough on the first startup. My AEM Wideband matches what I'm seeing in Tunerstudio but is very low at 10AFR. I also changed the injector size in Engine and Sequential settings to 725cc. Should I load the Megasquirt Mazdaspeed base map, or does someone have one that matches my setup? See attached for my startup log. Thanks.

Watterson02

e Before your first start, you will want to input your new Injector deadtime and voltage corrections, if you haven't already. Next, you will want to use the Req Fuel Calculator to scale your fueling to accommodate the increased flow of these injectors over the stock ones. Beyond that, you will need to tune it yourself. The basemap is literally just to get the car running. It is not like an "off-the-shelf tune" like what is common with Cobb Access Port Systems.

Beyond this, you will need to adjust the VE table to get your AFRs to match what is shown in your AFR target table (TunerStudio Pro / VE Analyze is worth paying the $60 for, it will help you autotune your fuel table). Also, this will likely throw stuff further out of whack, but it will be much more beneficial later if you enable the "Incorporate AFR table" under General Settings. It will normalize your VE number and allow for easier changes to the target AFRs in the future. You will also likely need to scale your Acceleration Enrichment numbers for the new injectors (assuming the base map was close enough with the stock ones). Do this by dividing the stock injector's flow rate by the new injector flow rate, then multiplying it with the default numbers in the base map. Your start up fuel settings will likely need to be adjusted similarly. This may need some tweaking. Regardless this should be enough to get you 75% of the way to a decent tune.

Unfortunately, like most things, the last bit of refinement will take the most effort. If the answer to your tuning question isn't on Miataturbo.net, check out MSExtra.com's forums. In the future here are some other topics to explore:
- EGO Control: This will correct the error in your AFRs where possible. It is recommended to disable it in boost (>80-100kpa) and not to give it more than 10-15% authority. Advanced PID control is recommended, but the default narrowband settings will technically still work...
- CLT / MAT Correction Table: Calibrating this will help normalize AFRs during different weather. You might notice that on cold mornings your car might run 10% rich, or on hot days 10% lean. This is what you need to tune to fix this from what I've read. I plan on making a short post in the future and copying my settings should get you 90% of the way there.
- Ignition Table: The default one on your basemap should be close enough if you wish to skip over this, but if you're running superior fuel this can help pick up additional power. Just be careful because if running poor quality fuel or you get too excited with your timing numbers this WILL blow up your engine.
- Open Loop Boost Control: Very straight forward method of boost control. It requires at least a 3 port boost solenoid. It works by using a raw duty cycle based on TPS. It will cause minor fluctuations in different weather. WARNING: Before messing with boost control make sure to enable boost cut at a safe value. It may be possible to blow up your engine on the stock turbo by making too much torque too low, especially with e85 fuel.
- Closed Loop Boost Control: More complex method of boost control by using PID control. It will maintain your boost target better and allow for quicker spool up, but is considerably more difficult to tune.
- Open / Closed Loop Idle: Simillar to boost control, but it is a method of idle RPM control. It will be easier to tune and much more forgiving than boost control, so before tackling that start here.

This took a lot of effort to type out, and it is going to be a lot of info to learn, but it is kind of what you signed up for unless you plan on taking it to a professional tuner (but with what I know now, I'd rather tune it myself than let someone else. A lot of "tuners" can be useless at best or blow up your engine at worst). If you have any more specific questions I'll be happy to answer, but this is already a lot of spoon-feeding here. Others on here won't typically spoon-feed like this.

CustomESP

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this detailed response. I will review this checklist and see if I can't improve the situation. Thanks again!

Watterson02

Just focus on the first paragraph for the time being. Don't worry about the list basically at all until you're confident or at least happy with the items in the paragraph. Once you feel decent about the first handful of things, upload your tune and a datalog of you driving it around and we will see what needs some work. Take a week or month to try and understand that stuff first though. Do a bunch of reading too.

CustomESP

Update: I followed your directions and made the following adjustments within Tunerstudio:

• Increased the size of the injectors to 725cc
• Used the following calculation to adjust the fuel (current fuel: 11.6 ÷ New Injector size: 725 = 0.016 x Old Injector Size 270 = 4.32
• Inputed the following dead times and voltages at 4bar from the table below:

The car now idles perfectly at about 13AFR, which again matches what the wideband tells me.

That said, when I depressed the accelerator, the AFR shot up to 20, and the exhaust smelled rich.

I have included my tune and idle log.

Thanks!

curly

iTrader: (25)

It's adding 8% fuel because your air temp sensor is reading -10, get that fixed first, then your idle AFR should be closer to target.

The little bit of throttle you gave it lasted less than a second, so that's mainly accel enrichments. You don't want to tune AE until you've fully tuned your fuel table. Although you went super lean, you also went super rich immediately after to 10.8, which is typical AE behavior. Hold RPM and MAP stable to tune each cell.

Watterson02

I agree with what Curly has said.

After quickly looking through your tune I noticed a few things that you will likely want to change:
- Your averaging lag factors (Basic/Load Settings -> General Settings -> General Sensor Settings) are default, which tends to be low, in my opinion. Testing will need to be conducted to fine-tune your values. You'll want most of these things to be as close to 100 as possible without experiencing any jitter. It is nitpicky of me to bring this up right now, but it can help with Acceleration Enrichment when your TPS and MAP lag averaging values are as high as possible. The rest are less important and can be left at the default values.
- Your AFR Target Table looks okay, but slightly lean (in my opinion) in boost. I prefer safety over power in boost, personally. I also smoothed out the cruising and idle areas. You can make your own decisions here, but these target values will be slightly safer (and what I would run personally):

- I've not tuned a MSM before so I don't know what ignition timing is typically ran on those smaller stock turbos, but the default ignition table looked slightly aggressive in cruising conditions and boost, in my opinion. I also changed the idle ignition timing to a commonly accepted number. Again, I'm not telling you what to do here just what I would do. These values that I provided will be safer and allow for better idle control if you decide to use the Idle Advance Correction settings.

- I can't comment on what ballpark numbers to use for your Acceleration Enrichment values though. I didn't think about the difference between MS2 and MS3 when it comes to AE. Ignore my previous comments on AE.

These recommendations are nothing but just that, recommendations. I'm not sure if the MS3 supports it, but my favorite "feature" of the MS2PNP is that it has a headphone jack port that I can use to listen to the knock sensor directly. This allows me to be more aggressive with my ignition timing while still being safe since I can tell when knock begins to occur. Unfortunately, I don't have good knock control like the MS3 supports. Personally, I would run the safe ignition map until you have that configured and better understand ignition timing and it's effects. HP Academy has some great videos on YouTube in terms of ignition timing and knock. that they released only 11 days ago on that topic.

Edit: After looking at your datalog I noticed that you only were idling while still warming up. Go ahead and take it for a drive if you can, just take it slow and be weary of the AFRs. This is where the premium version of tunerstudio will come in handy, especially so on the first drive. It will automatically correct your AFR table if you start the Autotuning function under VE Analyze near the top menus. You'll want to tune the idle cells (750-1200 rpm) manually once you're at operating temperature, and then lock them out by highlighting them and right clicking on them and selecting "Lock Selected Cells" or whatever it says. You'll also want to set the Minimum Fuel Load to something like 20kpa so it doesn't try to correct in very high vacuum (Correcting in high vacuum can lead to the autotune feature adding way too much fuel).

Watterson02

Oh and here is the tune file with the changes that I made for easier copying over if you wish to.

CustomESP

Again, Thanks to you both for all the insight. I purchased the full version of Tunerstudio and ran the autotune.

I loaded up your map and went for a drive. Unfortunately, while it was autotuning, the car stalled quite a few times when idling (AFR went from one end of the spectrum to the other before dying) but was relatively smooth in 1st and 2nd gear around the neighborhood.

See attached for the log and new autotune map.

Thanks again!

curly

iTrader: (25)

Idle is crazy high advance, no reason to do that. The 100kpa (naturally aspirated) row could actually use about 4 degrees more advance, and the 125/150kpa rows are about a degree retarded, but I would leave them since they're safe. The 175kpa row was ok, the 200 row is about 4-5 degrees too advanced, so definitely take some out of there.

I don't understand why stock injectors with sequential is trying to idle at 14.0, you should easily be able to maintain 14.7.

This is more like what I would suggest, but it's pretty close to what Watterson is suggesting. I just went even richer in boost afr targets, and less advance in the 200kpa row, with more in the 100kpa row.

CustomESP

Hi, I just updated my tables to yours, but I wanted to clarify your statement about stock injectors... Maybe I didn't understand your statement, but I'm not running stock injectors, but rather the flow force 725cc ones. Thanks

curly

iTrader: (25)

Eh, supposedly the smaller the injector, the better the idle control, but modern injectors, including your 725cc ones, will idle fine at 14.7.

Back in the day, with shitty RX8 injectors, MS1, and a 1.6 running batch injection, I had to idle at 13.5-14. But not on EV14s, MS3, and sequential fuel.

CustomESP

Hi, I appreciate the tables you sent over last night, but unfortunately, the car won't even crank over now.

Edit: It finally did, but it died seconds later.

2nd Edit: The battery is dead from all the restarts yesterday... I'm going to get another battery now to see if that remedies the issue.

curly

iTrader: (25)

You probably don't need a new battery unless it's 5-7 years old or older. I would suggest a battery tender to be on for 12+ hours and leave it on while you're trying to make it start and idle.

CustomESP

Hi Curly, Yeah, you were right. The battery did not affect the car, which again started and died immediately after. If I give it some gas, the car will hang on and die immediately after I stop giving it throttle.I wonder what it could be now. AFR was 13 before it died.

curly

iTrader: (25)

We're not really changing anything besides making it safe once tuned to the AFR and ignition targets. It's now your job or a tuner's job to get it to actually match those AFR targets, start well, and idle well.

Attach the current tune again because I didn't save it, and a log of it trying to start and I'll try to find some time to help.

CustomESP

Thanks Curly, I appreciate it. See the attached file for the start-up log and tune.

curly

iTrader: (25)

Here's some changes. Your MAT still isn't reading correctly, neither is your wideband. Once those two are ready, you want to use throttle to keep it running, and slowly let go of the throttle until it idles. CL idle and EGO should take over and be able to keep it running. Log this whole thing and let it idle until it's at least at thermostat temp, then post that log. But again, fix your MAT and AFR first.

m1yeh

I'm using the FF725 and target 14.3 AFR at idle.
The reason is because its tough the non-linear small pulsewidths become really non-linear around 1.8PW and fall off a cliff on these and there's essentially no fuel injected at 1.6PW.

CustomESP

Hi Curly, I just loaded your map, and bingo, the car is now idling much better! I could even drive it around for a few minutes and record a log. The only hiccup is that if you don't give it approximately 30% or more throttle, the engine wants to die, but if you give it adequate throttle, the AFRs stay about 14. Also, My AFR gauge correctly matched tuner studio. I'm not sure if the MAT is still reading incorrectly though. See attached for a log.