Why turbo your car and get only 160whp? You can get there NA anyway for 2k.
01-17-2008, 02:23 PM
#101
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Dodge Caravans and Honda Odysseys? 
You've just recieved a bunch of real-world examples of people NOT doing what you obviously think is "easy". Calling every setup that doesn't agree with your theory "sad" isn't going to make the stock bottom end 160whp car just magically appear. The people you're insulting now have more experience than the both of us combined, so tread how you will on that one.
1. Honda S2k = 240bhp
2. S2k = 202-205whp even with boltons
3. 9000rpm = not possible on a stock bottom end
4. If heads were hoses, the F20C would have a fire hose and the BP would have a coffee straw
You've just recieved a bunch of real-world examples of people NOT doing what you obviously think is "easy". Calling every setup that doesn't agree with your theory "sad" isn't going to make the stock bottom end 160whp car just magically appear. The people you're insulting now have more experience than the both of us combined, so tread how you will on that one.
1. Honda S2k = 240bhp
2. S2k = 202-205whp even with boltons
3. 9000rpm = not possible on a stock bottom end
4. If heads were hoses, the F20C would have a fire hose and the BP would have a coffee straw
I have nothing wrong with peoples setups not making big NA hp numbers (well unless you've dumped 6-7 grand into the motor LOL) because, like my autocross car is set up, responsiveness and a good torque curve are generally far more useful than peak numbers. This is part of the reason they don't think my magical 160hp motor is impossible, because if they built one it would be built right!
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01-17-2008, 02:44 PM
#103
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You should be a criminal defense lawyer, you are really good at ignoring most arguments and focusing on certain ones that you can drag people down with. I don't know if you're doing it because you lack debate skills or because you posses them.
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01-17-2008, 03:26 PM
#104
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Pull your head from your *** and learn how cylinder heads and valve train work!
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01-17-2008, 04:30 PM
#105
Read my math you ******* VAG. Its 100% valid BY THE MATH. The STOCK head of a 302 flows more with STOCK valvetrain and STOCK CAM than a BP engine! You're NOT GOING TO PHYSICALLY MATCH THE FLOW OF VALVES IN A BP! Both the total surface area of the valves, lift, and duration! NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!
Pull your head from your *** and learn how cylinder heads and valve train work!
Pull your head from your *** and learn how cylinder heads and valve train work!
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01-17-2008, 04:42 PM
#106
Explain to me how you're going to obtain numbers ANYWHERE Near what AFRs head work did on a 5.0 PER CYLINDER Horsepower gain with a ******* dremel and some spare time? Do you have some hightech flowbench stuck up your *** that we'd like to know about? I'm just curious....
Originally Posted by elesjuan
Read my math you ******* VAG. Its 100% valid BY THE MATH. The STOCK head of a 302 flows more with STOCK valvetrain and STOCK CAM than a BP engine! You're NOT GOING TO PHYSICALLY MATCH THE FLOW OF VALVES IN A BP! Both the total surface area of the valves, lift, and duration! NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!
Well, there is a lot more to it than valve size.
I'm only going to discusss the valvetrain, but of course, there are other improtant factors such as the angles of attack, the placement of the valves in the combustion chambers, valve shrouding, the effects of overlap with different valve layouts, etc.
Our motors are DOHC, not SUHC. We don't have rocker ams that will deform at 7K RPMs, nor do we have pushrods that can bow from the load that is increasing by the square of the RPM. A stock 302 won't make power past 4800 RPM's because it can't fill it's cylinders. A stock miata will continute making power past 4800 RPM's, because it can. However, it too will stop breathing well prematurely. The comparison you posted suports what I'm saying, the AFR heads flowed better, but the RPM peaked in relatively the same place.
On setup clearly has the advantage of a more stable valvetrain that is much better suited for high RPMs. It has two small valves that are lighter than one big one, which results in less load put on the lobes of the camshaft. It can spread this reduced load to two seperate lobes on the cam as well, cuting the reduced load yet in half. It has less reciprocating mass, and more rotating mass, which is ideal.
There, the different designs of the valvetrain is an important factor. If the miata head can be improved to flow more air, and it's valvetrain is up to the task, it has more potential to make HP than a SUHC engine.
In short, your wrong, there is a lot more to it and a 4V head does flow more air than a 2V, and has more potential for improvement.
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01-17-2008, 04:59 PM
#107
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Alright you ******* dick, I'm sick of you trying to "call me out"
Oh it takes at least 5k to turbo your car? RLY? I'll be making a lot more power than you are on my BP for about $1500
And yes you can build a 160hp NA BP. JUST a good head/cams and exhaust can get you to 150. Raising the rev limit and using more aggressive cams and possibly fuel management could very likely get you to 160hp, especially if you raise the compression ratio, and - or use race gas.
Oh it takes at least 5k to turbo your car? RLY? I'll be making a lot more power than you are on my BP for about $1500
And yes you can build a 160hp NA BP. JUST a good head/cams and exhaust can get you to 150. Raising the rev limit and using more aggressive cams and possibly fuel management could very likely get you to 160hp, especially if you raise the compression ratio, and - or use race gas.
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01-17-2008, 05:02 PM
#109
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I still disagree that the miata head vs a stock ford 302 head would flow more air, but do agree about RPM and valvetrain load/weight.
Dude I did the math! I took the AREA of BOTH intake valves of the stock BP and its LESS AREA than the Stock 302 head intake VALVE! Come on! Simple grade school math manG! Unless you're gonna sit there and tell me Pir2 doens't apply equally between a 2 and 4 valve motor..
I would bet money if you did a cc of the volume on a miata intake port you'll still have less than 165cc which is the volume of the intake port of the AFR 302 head. The opening on the head alone is MUCH larger than the little tiny opening on a BP cylinder head. I might just measure the volume of it myself.
Dude I did the math! I took the AREA of BOTH intake valves of the stock BP and its LESS AREA than the Stock 302 head intake VALVE! Come on! Simple grade school math manG! Unless you're gonna sit there and tell me Pir2 doens't apply equally between a 2 and 4 valve motor..
I would bet money if you did a cc of the volume on a miata intake port you'll still have less than 165cc which is the volume of the intake port of the AFR 302 head. The opening on the head alone is MUCH larger than the little tiny opening on a BP cylinder head. I might just measure the volume of it myself.
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01-17-2008, 05:16 PM
#112
It's actually RPM, throttle position, and coolant temp.
EDIT: O JEEZ I'm talking about VTAK on mt.net
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01-17-2008, 05:29 PM
#113
It was a race motor a guy was building. He used windsor heads I believe. Not sure how long it lasted, but I know it lasted at least one season. Granted, it was built to make power where he was only allowed to use a 302 block, or else he would have started with a 351 with a higher deck height to start with.
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01-17-2008, 06:48 PM
#120
179 hp -> ford
130 hp (guess?) -> miata
179 / 2 = 89 hp per head
I'm going with 4 valves for the win. Let's see what F1 cars, motorcycles, or ANYONE who wants to make a lot of power on a small motor does.
I say put yamaha 5 valve heads on there. Or, do what I've seen countless times before: buy a sub-$1000 supercharger used, crush your regulator and go drive. Why would anyone do NA mods? That said, headwork is worth a LOT. Some porting and deshrouding makes sense, DIY if you read up first. Cams are HUGE - everyone's been saying it, you're giving up bottom end for it.
And start with an NB motor. 145 crank hp is a better place to start than 120. Lastly: 40 hp gain on 179 is 22% gain. So the claim isn't 40 hp but ~1/4 more power.
Why compare to a low stage head job which the biggest claim in "smog legal"?
130 hp (guess?) -> miata
179 / 2 = 89 hp per head
I'm going with 4 valves for the win. Let's see what F1 cars, motorcycles, or ANYONE who wants to make a lot of power on a small motor does.
I say put yamaha 5 valve heads on there. Or, do what I've seen countless times before: buy a sub-$1000 supercharger used, crush your regulator and go drive. Why would anyone do NA mods? That said, headwork is worth a LOT. Some porting and deshrouding makes sense, DIY if you read up first. Cams are HUGE - everyone's been saying it, you're giving up bottom end for it.
And start with an NB motor. 145 crank hp is a better place to start than 120. Lastly: 40 hp gain on 179 is 22% gain. So the claim isn't 40 hp but ~1/4 more power.
Why compare to a low stage head job which the biggest claim in "smog legal"?
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