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I'd rather have family members reaching across a sink to hand me something than reaching across a stove. Additionally, the island can be used for quite a few other things - as a dining area, as a party serving area, as a place to play board games, or generally as just an ideal place to gather around, set drinks, and give each other dumb looks. Most hosts generally don't want that hot cooktop *between* them and their guests while they're preparing the evening meal. Similarly, my grill is generally placed such that the front of the grill is facing the logical gathering area, and the back of the grill is towards the edge of the deck. No ventilation hood is necessary - it's just much more "group friendly" to turn away from your guests for brief periods of time rather than staring at them over or through the smoke of burning fat as it flares up from dripping onto the flavorizer bars.
My best friend's parents have a very nice home with the sink against the window and the cooktop on the island. It's an electric cooktop, so right up front, they're not serious about cooking; I've seen it used as a table surface for art, crafts, homework, etc. There is no hood over top of the cooking area - but then, it's electric, so it's not like you'd need one anyways. |
Originally Posted by good2go
(Post 1424324)
It's actually not. Any serious cooking on the stove requires serious ventilation (unless you want your house to stink for hours after every meal). The updraft required for serious (high BTU) cooking is not discrete in the least, especially when you have raised ceilings, and thus makes a rather grotesque monolith in what could otherwise be an open and airy room (which all the rage, BTW).
[discussion of downdraft, on which I agree] At some point, you have to decide if you are serious about cooking, or about looks (and resale value). For starters, the tiny, urban kitchens in the three apartments in which I seriously learned to embrace cooking (Hoboken, UES, Wrigleyville) all lacked external exhaust above the range. Yes, there were many smoke-alarm moments. But I checked the NEC, and it's not specifically prohibited to place AC-powered smoke alarms on switched circuits. Just put a switch on the island next to the switch which controls the fan in the vent hood. To wit: https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...fdecdb6f3f.png https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...cc7764e7a5.png Not buying the grotesque monolith argument.
Originally Posted by codrus
(Post 1424335)
It's also safer and more practical to keep the heat-soaked cooktop up against a wall.
Originally Posted by codrus
(Post 1424335)
Of course, I think open plan kitchens are stupid.
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Joe's house design:
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...162712a8d0.jpg All fires to the middle of the room!! |
Honestly, I would agree with you, Joe. The issue I see is the ventilation blocks the open-concept most consumers are after. Further, those downdraft systems are inefficient so the ultimate compromise is to put the sink in the center. In my experience, it is easier to have a conversation over cleaning up some dishes than focusing on a serious conversation while cooking.
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 1424362)
Serious question: Why?
Open plan kitchens are stupid because you've immediately blown away something like a third of your available cabinet storage, meaning that you need to decdicate more square footage of your house to achieve the same utility level of the kitchen. They're also stupid because when I'm cooking something, the last thing I want is for everyone in the house to be yammering away at me. Give me some space to work. You're probably one of those people who think open plan offices are great too, aren't you? --Ian |
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 1424362)
I don't buy any of this. ... [mildly grotesque pics] Not buying the grotesque monolith argument. Also, ceiling heights were still within reason (8'-10') in both of those. Show me a decent looking pic of one where the ceiling height is in the 12'-14' range. Besides the elephant in the room distraction, how does one even properly brace/support a pendulum hanging from a high ceiling such that it does not move laterally when the operator touches it? |
I prefer not to be burdened with watching the hired help prepare my meals. Used to be so much easier when you had a Breezeway between the kitchen and the rest of the house.
Scuse me while I retire to The Parlor. |
Originally Posted by codrus
(Post 1424407)
You're probably one of those people who think open plan offices are great too, aren't you?
--Ian But being a Tech Writer it's sometimes good because QA, Devs, etc, may be discussing a feature/fix/etc that I'm documenting and may pick something up I hadn't heard before, or leads me to ask more questions. Also, here is an absolutely disgusting building in OKC. Cheap ripoff of the Frank Lloyd Wright building that is in Bartlesville, OK. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c2d590c41c.jpg The Price Tower. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...00a6a7fa63.jpg |
Originally Posted by sixshooter
(Post 1424431)
I prefer not to be burdened with watching the hired help prepare my meals. Used to be so much easier when you had a Breezeway between the kitchen and the rest of the house.
Scuse me while I retire to The Parlor. |
^Middle-class folks wouldn't typically have live in help.
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I don't even know why we're discussing kitchens when the biggest issue with contemporary house design is the ubiquity of giant master bathrooms with monstrous elevated spa/whirlpool/tub things. Spending hours in a giant bubble bath is not luxury, it's what a poor person imagines luxury must be. Real luxury is having an efficiently laid out floor plan that provides adequate and appropriate space for storage and normal daily activities. I spend about 20 minutes a day in the bathroom; I don't need a tub big enough to swim laps in, nor do I need a bathroom counter longer than a shuffleboard.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...731c86f274.jpg This example is not the worst offender by far, but it demonstrates the point. This is actually in a house we might consider. However, while the house is 1900+ sq ft, it's only 3 bedrooms, without even a bonus room or office to speak of. Look at the stupid arrangement with all of that wasted space directly behind the tub, and consider that even more space is wasted since the tub itself juts out into the rest of the bathroom. |
Originally Posted by z31maniac
(Post 1424445)
^Middle-class folks wouldn't typically have live in help.
And they likely wouldn't have breezeways separating the kitchen from the rest of the house. But that, I say, that is how we do it down here. |
Originally Posted by y8s
(Post 1424383)
Joe's house design:
(the 70s) All fires to the middle of the room!!
Originally Posted by mreakus
(Post 1424387)
Honestly, I would agree with you, Joe. The issue I see is the ventilation blocks the open-concept most consumers are after.(...) In my experience, it is easier to have a conversation over cleaning up some dishes than focusing on a serious conversation while cooking.
2: Personal experience as an adult visiting home at the holidays: The kitchen in my sister's house is of a semi-open design. (It opens out into the dining room, and tangentially into the living room.) And around Christmastime, cooking is always taking place. Much conversation occurs during the cooking process. Less so during the cleanup process, as people are stuffed and otherwise engaged.
Originally Posted by codrus
(Post 1424407)
As a parent of a very active child, I appreciate having hot pans full of boiling liquid tucked away next to a wall, rather than placed in the center of a large room with nothing to shield them.
Originally Posted by codrus
(Post 1424407)
Open plan kitchens are stupid because you've immediately blown away something like a third of your available cabinet storage, meaning that you need to decdicate more square footage of your house to achieve the same utility level of the kitchen.
Originally Posted by codrus
(Post 1424407)
You're probably one of those people who think open plan offices are great too, aren't you?
Most people think "tech startup" when they hear this. Huge benches, zero personal space. Not a fan. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c143df39e2.png Back in NYC, the engineering management office was of a semi-open plan. Here's what it looked like in CAD: https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...567b802bcf.png Each desk had a partition which was about top-of-head high, with clear glass for the upper 12". This was perfect. You still have your space, but if you need to ask the IT boss if his folks are screwing with the extranet router, you just stand up and ask. The big table in the middle was awesome. Held several E-size plots, and allowed for easy collaboration. Big whiteboards near the door and behind my desk that got used a lot. I loved that layout. At my current gig, I have an office with a door. My VP has an office with a door. So do my IT manager, my media manager, and so on. I hate it. My office is nice, but not all prison cells need be dank and smelly. I spend as little time as possible there, as I feel like a rat in a cage. Back at Harris, we had cubicles. They were large cubicles, but still cubicles. I dismantled the outward-facing wall of mine, and re-arranged the interior bits so that I faced outwards when sitting at my desk, with the "tinkering with shit" area in the rear. Loved it.
Originally Posted by good2go
(Post 1424410)
Also, ceiling heights were still within reason (8'-10') in both of those. Show me a decent looking pic of one where the ceiling height is in the 12'-14' range. Besides the elephant in the room distraction, how does one even properly brace/support a pendulum hanging from a high ceiling such that it does not move laterally when the operator touches it?
2: Why would the chef be touching the hood? On the nice models, the fan & lighting are controlled remotely, by switches mounted on the island. Also, the bulk of the mass (the fan & motor assembly) are mounted up in the attic, not in the hood itself. |
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 1424513)
At my current gig, I have an office with a door. My VP has an office with a door. So do my IT manager, my media manager, and so on. I hate it. My office is nice, but not all prison cells need be dank and smelly. I spend as little time as possible there, as I feel like a rat in a cage.
I'd love to have an office with a door I could close again. I had one for about 2 years when I worked at Qualcomm in the mid 90s, and it's been cubes ever since. I hate it. --Ian |
Originally Posted by mgeoffriau
(Post 1424453)
I don't even know why we're discussing kitchens when the biggest issue with contemporary house design is the ubiquity of giant master bathrooms with monstrous elevated spa/whirlpool/tub things. Spending hours in a giant bubble bath is not luxury, it's what a poor person imagines luxury must be. Real luxury is having an efficiently laid out floor plan that provides adequate and appropriate space for storage and normal daily activities. I spend about 20 minutes a day in the bathroom; I don't need a tub big enough to swim laps in, nor do I need a bathroom counter longer than a shuffleboard.
(image) This example is not the worst offender by far, but it demonstrates the point. This is actually in a house we might consider. However, while the house is 1900+ sq ft, it's only 3 bedrooms, without even a bonus room or office to speak of. Look at the stupid arrangement with all of that wasted space directly behind the tub, and consider that even more space is wasted since the tub itself juts out into the rest of the bathroom. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...043a532152.png I don't like it, but I get that it's an impulsive selling-point. Doesn't bother me that much, as I don't consider the bathroom to be a major focal-point of social life, nor a place in which I spend recreational time. I shit, I shower, I brush my teeth. As a general rule, I prefer to spend as little time in the bathroom as possible, regardless of layout. That would be in contrast to the kitchen, which is a major recreational area in which I enjoy spending time. I'm already mentally working up the layout, and have idented the new stand-mixer I intend to buy, along with the articulating arm for the tablet. The speaker layout will be perfect. |
If other people can see me browsing mt.net at work then it's too open.
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Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1424517)
If other people can see me browsing mt.net at work then it's too open.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...5bf8b4d6fb.png Not really worried about that, in much the same way that the fine-looking young woman who lived on the 10th floor of the building just to the west of Pfizer didn't seem all that worried about us watching her get out of the shower every morning from the newsroom. With the $16,000 telephoto lens. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...0a44ab27b9.png |
Originally Posted by aidandj
(Post 1424517)
If other people can see me browsing mt.net at work then it's too open.
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Originally Posted by z31maniac
(Post 1424445)
^Middle-class folks wouldn't typically have live in help.
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Originally Posted by olderguy
(Post 1424611)
In Peru, almost all middle class folk have live-in help. Not going to complain about the "Third World"
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