MSM cooling issues
#21
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So it's bone stock with a bigger intercooler blocking airflow, and it idles at 220° in 90° weather.
That sounds normal to me.
-Swap an aluminum radiator in. Doesn't matter which, just pick a good brand. Not mystery meat- eBay IOW.
-Reroute
-cut antifreeze to 5%
- vent hood
- seal gaps around radiator
Should then idle at tstat temp, only get to 215 when you lean on it and quickly drop when you ease off.
Will cruise below 210° on hot days with A/C on.
None of these recommendations are clever or new info. Just SOP for a car like yours.
That sounds normal to me.
-Swap an aluminum radiator in. Doesn't matter which, just pick a good brand. Not mystery meat- eBay IOW.
-Reroute
-cut antifreeze to 5%
- vent hood
- seal gaps around radiator
Should then idle at tstat temp, only get to 215 when you lean on it and quickly drop when you ease off.
Will cruise below 210° on hot days with A/C on.
None of these recommendations are clever or new info. Just SOP for a car like yours.
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#22
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So it's bone stock with a bigger intercooler blocking airflow, and it idles at 220° in 90° weather.
That sounds normal to me.
-Swap an aluminum radiator in. Doesn't matter which, just pick a good brand. Not mystery meat- eBay IOW.
-Reroute
-cut antifreeze to 5%
- vent hood
- seal gaps around radiator
Should then idle at tstat temp, only get to 215 when you lean on it and quickly drop when you ease off.
Will cruise below 210° on hot days with A/C on.
None of these recommendations are clever or new info. Just SOP for a car like yours.
That sounds normal to me.
-Swap an aluminum radiator in. Doesn't matter which, just pick a good brand. Not mystery meat- eBay IOW.
-Reroute
-cut antifreeze to 5%
- vent hood
- seal gaps around radiator
Should then idle at tstat temp, only get to 215 when you lean on it and quickly drop when you ease off.
Will cruise below 210° on hot days with A/C on.
None of these recommendations are clever or new info. Just SOP for a car like yours.
Brb doing some shopping.
#23
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So your fans are off when temps are good on the highway right?
I'm guessing things aren't sealed well enough to pull enough air through the system when your fans are on. If things are stock ish then I doubt the fans are the main issue. Is the ebay intercooler covering up more surface area in front of the radiator than the MSM one?
How's your undertray looking? Any holes /damage?
Edit: phone didn't show me emilios response till I posted...
I'm guessing things aren't sealed well enough to pull enough air through the system when your fans are on. If things are stock ish then I doubt the fans are the main issue. Is the ebay intercooler covering up more surface area in front of the radiator than the MSM one?
How's your undertray looking? Any holes /damage?
Edit: phone didn't show me emilios response till I posted...
#24
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So your fans are off when temps are good on the highway right?
I'm guessing things aren't sealed well enough to pull enough air through the system when your fans are on. If things are stock ish then I doubt the fans are the main issue. Is the ebay intercooler covering up more surface area in front of the radiator than the MSM one?
How's your undertray looking? Any holes /damage?
Edit: phone didn't show me emilios response till I posted...
I'm guessing things aren't sealed well enough to pull enough air through the system when your fans are on. If things are stock ish then I doubt the fans are the main issue. Is the ebay intercooler covering up more surface area in front of the radiator than the MSM one?
How's your undertray looking? Any holes /damage?
Edit: phone didn't show me emilios response till I posted...
Basically, i can let the car idle and watch the car go from tstat temp to about 220f, watch the fans speed up, car quickly drops down to about 212-215 and then slowly heat back up and the cycle repeat itself. Effectively, the system is "working" as intended, but 220-225f is hotter than i'd prefer.
#25
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I'd suspect something being wrong if you're seeing temps like that.
Mine never got hot with stock cooling system with a bit more power and modifications. Granted i did eventually end up with an Ebay 55mm radiator and an FM Stage 1 fan kit (which also never got hot), but i'm not convinced your car is working right.
Mine never got hot with stock cooling system with a bit more power and modifications. Granted i did eventually end up with an Ebay 55mm radiator and an FM Stage 1 fan kit (which also never got hot), but i'm not convinced your car is working right.
I agree, you should not see temps that high when just idling. My car runs in between 88-94C doesnt matter if I am idling, driving highway, backroads. All I have are stock fans and a Ebay 55mm just like Concealer does. I have minimal ducting in place.I did seal the fans to the radiator with some weatherstripping stuff I found at Home Depot. I run a approx 80/20 water/AF mix.
#26
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Additionally in terms of DPE, when i did install the Ebay 55mm radiator with Mishimoto fans/shroud, the car took foooorrrrreeeevveerrrrr to kick on the fans at idle or low speeds, if it ever did.
But would get hot on the highway. Like, too hot.
A panicked call to FM during the middle of my wedding trip net me a "ah yeah that's normal for aftermarket fans on MSMs." Turns out it's not an uncommon anecdote among MSM owners and FM in particular to see these cars using the fans more often at highway speeds than they do around town. Actual good fans got me sorted out, and i could watch them kick on and off at highway speeds, which again, isn't uncommon for these cars. An MSM with an upgraded intercooler w/ AC, stock ducting/undertray, and stock hood has absolutely HORRID airflow through the radiator at speed. Pressure builds up and creates this nice cushion in front of the car which not-so-conveniently gets all your air going around the car instead of through the opening.
But would get hot on the highway. Like, too hot.
A panicked call to FM during the middle of my wedding trip net me a "ah yeah that's normal for aftermarket fans on MSMs." Turns out it's not an uncommon anecdote among MSM owners and FM in particular to see these cars using the fans more often at highway speeds than they do around town. Actual good fans got me sorted out, and i could watch them kick on and off at highway speeds, which again, isn't uncommon for these cars. An MSM with an upgraded intercooler w/ AC, stock ducting/undertray, and stock hood has absolutely HORRID airflow through the radiator at speed. Pressure builds up and creates this nice cushion in front of the car which not-so-conveniently gets all your air going around the car instead of through the opening.
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I agree, you should not see temps that high when just idling. My car runs in between 88-94C doesnt matter if I am idling, driving highway, backroads. All I have are stock fans and a Ebay 55mm just like Concealer does. I have minimal ducting in place.I did seal the fans to the radiator with some weatherstripping stuff I found at Home Depot. I run a approx 80/20 water/AF mix.
#29
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Additionally in terms of DPE, when i did install the Ebay 55mm radiator with Mishimoto fans/shroud, the car took foooorrrrreeeevveerrrrr to kick on the fans at idle or low speeds, if it ever did.
But would get hot on the highway. Like, too hot.
A panicked call to FM during the middle of my wedding trip net me a "ah yeah that's normal for aftermarket fans on MSMs." Turns out it's not an uncommon anecdote among MSM owners and FM in particular to see these cars using the fans more often at highway speeds than they do around town. Actual good fans got me sorted out, and i could watch them kick on and off at highway speeds, which again, isn't uncommon for these cars. An MSM with an upgraded intercooler w/ AC, stock ducting/undertray, and stock hood has absolutely HORRID airflow through the radiator at speed. Pressure builds up and creates this nice cushion in front of the car which not-so-conveniently gets all your air going around the car instead of through the opening.
But would get hot on the highway. Like, too hot.
A panicked call to FM during the middle of my wedding trip net me a "ah yeah that's normal for aftermarket fans on MSMs." Turns out it's not an uncommon anecdote among MSM owners and FM in particular to see these cars using the fans more often at highway speeds than they do around town. Actual good fans got me sorted out, and i could watch them kick on and off at highway speeds, which again, isn't uncommon for these cars. An MSM with an upgraded intercooler w/ AC, stock ducting/undertray, and stock hood has absolutely HORRID airflow through the radiator at speed. Pressure builds up and creates this nice cushion in front of the car which not-so-conveniently gets all your air going around the car instead of through the opening.
#31
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220F at Idle is a bit high for a stockish MSM . Is this a new issue? Any cause and effect analysis here? When did you install the Ebay intercooler? Some of these Ebay intercoolers block more air than they allow through. Makes for a crappy intercooler and limits air reaching your radiator.
Next, some second owners of MSMs have reported a similar issue as you where the radiator had been replaced by the previous owner using a new factory radiator which was the NB non MSM model (there are different OEM radiators for MSMs and NBs). This was hard for the second owners to diagnose as their cars had "new" factory radiators. The MSM forums were moved to miata.net but there has been good discussion regarding how to tell if you have a MSM OEM radiator : https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthrea...t=msm+radiator
If you have a OEM MSM radiator and it is not clogged or damaged, then you have an airflow problem. Sounds like you have confirmed factory fans are running correctly is that right? If yes, look to how your airflow is reaching your radiator. Another mistake discussed on the old MSM forum is that folks had a rise in temps when they put some type of wire mesh in the bumper opening to "protect" the intercooler and AC condenser from rocks/bugs. The mesh limited airflow just enough to cause idle temps to rise. The goal is to always have unrestricted flow entering the bumper opening and then to force this air through the radiator not let it move around it. This is where sealing up gaps with foam tape around the radiator and making sure the undertray is in place become important. Switching to a 95%: 5% water : coolant will also help as water exchanges heat much better than coolant. Switching to an ebay aluminum radiator may actually exacerbate the temp issue if you are replacing an OEM MSM radiator with a brand that does not have comparable heat exchange capabilities. If a radiator change is warranted, the Supermiata, FM, or Trackspeed crossflow models would be a better solution as they are more efficient than the OEM radiator and are not made with plastic end tanks like the OEM model.
Hope this helps.
Next, some second owners of MSMs have reported a similar issue as you where the radiator had been replaced by the previous owner using a new factory radiator which was the NB non MSM model (there are different OEM radiators for MSMs and NBs). This was hard for the second owners to diagnose as their cars had "new" factory radiators. The MSM forums were moved to miata.net but there has been good discussion regarding how to tell if you have a MSM OEM radiator : https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthrea...t=msm+radiator
If you have a OEM MSM radiator and it is not clogged or damaged, then you have an airflow problem. Sounds like you have confirmed factory fans are running correctly is that right? If yes, look to how your airflow is reaching your radiator. Another mistake discussed on the old MSM forum is that folks had a rise in temps when they put some type of wire mesh in the bumper opening to "protect" the intercooler and AC condenser from rocks/bugs. The mesh limited airflow just enough to cause idle temps to rise. The goal is to always have unrestricted flow entering the bumper opening and then to force this air through the radiator not let it move around it. This is where sealing up gaps with foam tape around the radiator and making sure the undertray is in place become important. Switching to a 95%: 5% water : coolant will also help as water exchanges heat much better than coolant. Switching to an ebay aluminum radiator may actually exacerbate the temp issue if you are replacing an OEM MSM radiator with a brand that does not have comparable heat exchange capabilities. If a radiator change is warranted, the Supermiata, FM, or Trackspeed crossflow models would be a better solution as they are more efficient than the OEM radiator and are not made with plastic end tanks like the OEM model.
Hope this helps.
#32
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220F at Idle is a bit high for a stockish MSM . Is this a new issue? Any cause and effect analysis here? When did you install the Ebay intercooler? Some of these Ebay intercoolers block more air than they allow through. Makes for a crappy intercooler and limits air reaching your radiator.
Next, some second owners of MSMs have reported a similar issue as you where the radiator had been replaced by the previous owner using a new factory radiator which was the NB non MSM model (there are different OEM radiators for MSMs and NBs). This was hard for the second owners to diagnose as their cars had "new" factory radiators. The MSM forums were moved to miata.net but there has been good discussion regarding how to tell if you have a MSM OEM radiator : https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthrea...t=msm+radiator
If you have a OEM MSM radiator and it is not clogged or damaged, then you have an airflow problem. Sounds like you have confirmed factory fans are running correctly is that right? If yes, look to how your airflow is reaching your radiator. Another mistake discussed on the old MSM forum is that folks had a rise in temps when they put some type of wire mesh in the bumper opening to "protect" the intercooler and AC condenser from rocks/bugs. The mesh limited airflow just enough to cause idle temps to rise. The goal is to always have unrestricted flow entering the bumper opening and then to force this air through the radiator not let it move around it. This is where sealing up gaps with foam tape around the radiator and making sure the undertray is in place become important. Switching to a 95%: 5% water : coolant will also help as water exchanges heat much better than coolant. Switching to an ebay aluminum radiator may actually exacerbate the temp issue if you are replacing an OEM MSM radiator with a brand that does not have comparable heat exchange capabilities. If a radiator change is warranted, the Supermiata, FM, or Trackspeed crossflow models would be a better solution as they are more efficient than the OEM radiator and are not made with plastic end tanks like the OEM model.
Hope this helps.
Next, some second owners of MSMs have reported a similar issue as you where the radiator had been replaced by the previous owner using a new factory radiator which was the NB non MSM model (there are different OEM radiators for MSMs and NBs). This was hard for the second owners to diagnose as their cars had "new" factory radiators. The MSM forums were moved to miata.net but there has been good discussion regarding how to tell if you have a MSM OEM radiator : https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthrea...t=msm+radiator
If you have a OEM MSM radiator and it is not clogged or damaged, then you have an airflow problem. Sounds like you have confirmed factory fans are running correctly is that right? If yes, look to how your airflow is reaching your radiator. Another mistake discussed on the old MSM forum is that folks had a rise in temps when they put some type of wire mesh in the bumper opening to "protect" the intercooler and AC condenser from rocks/bugs. The mesh limited airflow just enough to cause idle temps to rise. The goal is to always have unrestricted flow entering the bumper opening and then to force this air through the radiator not let it move around it. This is where sealing up gaps with foam tape around the radiator and making sure the undertray is in place become important. Switching to a 95%: 5% water : coolant will also help as water exchanges heat much better than coolant. Switching to an ebay aluminum radiator may actually exacerbate the temp issue if you are replacing an OEM MSM radiator with a brand that does not have comparable heat exchange capabilities. If a radiator change is warranted, the Supermiata, FM, or Trackspeed crossflow models would be a better solution as they are more efficient than the OEM radiator and are not made with plastic end tanks like the OEM model.
Hope this helps.
I confirmed it's the correct MSM rad and i don't have any mesh grilles blocking the mouth opening. Seems this is just normal operation for these cars. Will be throwing some money at a new rad and reroute in the coming days and the longer term plan is to do some ducting to make sure i'm getting every bit of airflow to where it needs to go.
#33
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I'd suspect something being wrong if you're seeing temps like that.
Mine never got hot with stock cooling system with a bit more power and modifications. Granted i did eventually end up with an Ebay 55mm radiator and an FM Stage 1 fan kit (which also never got hot), but i'm not convinced your car is working right.
Mine never got hot with stock cooling system with a bit more power and modifications. Granted i did eventually end up with an Ebay 55mm radiator and an FM Stage 1 fan kit (which also never got hot), but i'm not convinced your car is working right.
Passenger side cooling fan was intermittently failing. Hadn't noticed it since every time i checked they were spinning, until one day I saw temps creep up at idle, popped the hood and saw the passenger fan off. getting it started by hand or hitting the shroud with a wrench got it going again, but it definitely wasn't running at the same speed as the driver fan and looks as if it's off balance. OEM MSM fan operation runs both fans at the same time, so pretty much confirms the passenger fan is bad. Ordered the FM fan kit and crossflow to start and the reroute will come next pay cycle. Going to completely bulletproof the system
Last edited by sometorque; 08-09-2019 at 03:16 PM.
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