Anyone have any brake questions?
#481
<p>
</p><p> </p><p>I've been meaning to follow up on this with you. How has the IR temp data logging system been working for you so far? Anyone else here interested in a real time brake rotor temp data?</p>
Unless you have infrared sensors on your rotors and KNOW what temperature range your pads are operating at, you don't even have enough data to begin to choose two different pads to combine together. I have IR datalogging on my rotor temps, but my data will not be your data.
Last edited by cyotani; 07-16-2015 at 06:32 PM.
#482
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,303
Total Cats: 1,216
Some issues with my power supply, I believe it is related to my vehicle's wiring not your unit. I haven't had the opportunity to do as much testing as I'd like, since it is usually working only partially each day, but lots of data still which has helped me with tuning.
The long-winded email I sent you a couple months ago had details and suggestions for minor improvements, but overall it's a great tool.
The long-winded email I sent you a couple months ago had details and suggestions for minor improvements, but overall it's a great tool.
#484
I have in the past run A1RM's and the front and EBC greens on the rear without any issues on the street. However since the car now spends more time on the track I have switched to a Winmax W5/W3 combination.
After rebuilding the rear calipers, master and proportioning valve the rears are locking up way earlier than the fronts. Changing to a Winmax W6.5 front pad for more 'bite' instead of installing a manual bias valve. However, the car is having another test day soon on a different track so will see how the car feels after this and make some more decisions.
Notwithstanding the W6.5's will help with on a hill climb event I have entered as they work from a lower temp than the W5's.
For my rotor temps I use thermo paint (http://www.racerindustries.com.au/af...cator-Kit.html) and whilst it does not give an exact temperature (between 450°C to 650°C), it does give a good indication of the max range and this is sufficent to make a decision on pads (at least for me). The paints will last many applications so it is an economical choice if you do not want to go the full data logging route. Plus I have no spare data logging channels, need t think about expanding this at some point...
An alternative to infrared sensors would be to use a rub type K Thermocouple http://www.tcdirect.net.au/deptprod.asp?deptid=180/44
The reason I use Winmax is that I get them for a very good price.
The car is running the NB8B sport brakes and DBA T3 rotors.
After rebuilding the rear calipers, master and proportioning valve the rears are locking up way earlier than the fronts. Changing to a Winmax W6.5 front pad for more 'bite' instead of installing a manual bias valve. However, the car is having another test day soon on a different track so will see how the car feels after this and make some more decisions.
Notwithstanding the W6.5's will help with on a hill climb event I have entered as they work from a lower temp than the W5's.
For my rotor temps I use thermo paint (http://www.racerindustries.com.au/af...cator-Kit.html) and whilst it does not give an exact temperature (between 450°C to 650°C), it does give a good indication of the max range and this is sufficent to make a decision on pads (at least for me). The paints will last many applications so it is an economical choice if you do not want to go the full data logging route. Plus I have no spare data logging channels, need t think about expanding this at some point...
An alternative to infrared sensors would be to use a rub type K Thermocouple http://www.tcdirect.net.au/deptprod.asp?deptid=180/44
The reason I use Winmax is that I get them for a very good price.
The car is running the NB8B sport brakes and DBA T3 rotors.
Last edited by Eipgam; 07-16-2015 at 04:59 PM.
#485
Interesting. Mixed based on the below but sounds like new rotors with a new pad type is the way to go.
From Hawk on bedding in pads:
"Clean a used rotor surface with fine sand paper or steel wool, rinse with water, dry and install before
bedding new pads."
From CarboTech:
"If rotors were previously bedded using a different manufacturer’s brake pads; then it is strongly recommended that the used discs (rotors) be reconditioned/turned and meet minimum specification requirements."
From 949 racing sight:
"Carbotech brakes require their own, uncontaminated transfer layer made by Carbotech pads. If this is not done, you will not experience the full potential of the ceramic-kevlar compound.
You will need to do one of the following:
Resurface your old rotors
Completely remove the old transfer layer with a steel wire brush/flapper disc on a drill/grinder
New rotors"
Stoptech:
They actually talk about using a different brake pad to essentially scrub off older pad material. "Uneven pad deposits can often be effectively removed from rotors by using a pad compound that is more abrasive at lower temperatures. StopTech has found the Hawk 9012 (Hawk Blue) compound to be particularly effective in removing uneven pad deposits from rotors."
Pagid:
They just say: "We do not recommend using discs, which are pre-bedded, or have been used with friction material
other than PAGID."
EBC:
The mentioned "Again new Discs/rotors is the solution or a Pro Cut on car Brake lathe re alignment."
From Hawk on bedding in pads:
"Clean a used rotor surface with fine sand paper or steel wool, rinse with water, dry and install before
bedding new pads."
From CarboTech:
"If rotors were previously bedded using a different manufacturer’s brake pads; then it is strongly recommended that the used discs (rotors) be reconditioned/turned and meet minimum specification requirements."
From 949 racing sight:
"Carbotech brakes require their own, uncontaminated transfer layer made by Carbotech pads. If this is not done, you will not experience the full potential of the ceramic-kevlar compound.
You will need to do one of the following:
Resurface your old rotors
Completely remove the old transfer layer with a steel wire brush/flapper disc on a drill/grinder
New rotors"
Stoptech:
They actually talk about using a different brake pad to essentially scrub off older pad material. "Uneven pad deposits can often be effectively removed from rotors by using a pad compound that is more abrasive at lower temperatures. StopTech has found the Hawk 9012 (Hawk Blue) compound to be particularly effective in removing uneven pad deposits from rotors."
Pagid:
They just say: "We do not recommend using discs, which are pre-bedded, or have been used with friction material
other than PAGID."
EBC:
The mentioned "Again new Discs/rotors is the solution or a Pro Cut on car Brake lathe re alignment."
#486
From the stoptech website:
Here:
-Warped- Brake Disc and Other Myths
The obvious question now is "is there a "cure" for discs with uneven friction material deposits?" The answer is a conditional yes. If the vibration has just started, the chances are that the temperature has never reached the point where cementite begins to form. In this case, simply fitting a set of good "semi-metallic" pads and using them hard (after bedding) may well remove the deposits and restore the system to normal operation but with upgraded pads. If only a small amount of material has been transferred i.e. if the vibration is just starting, vigorous scrubbing with garnet paper may remove the deposit. As many deposits are not visible, scrub the entire friction surfaces thoroughly. Do not use regular sand paper or emery cloth as the aluminum oxide abrasive material will permeate the cast iron surface and make the condition worse. Do not bead blast or sand blast the discs for the same reason.
-Warped- Brake Disc and Other Myths
#488
Ok, catching on here. Keeping "friction" as consistent as possible F-R, R-F allows for greater predictability in braking situations, increasing confidence and control over the vehicle which are huge components of going faster. While split compound bands/types can work, one is setting up the most ideal predictability via same compounds.
#489
You also need to consider weight transfer. Under heavy braking the front brakes are placed under the most load. Using different F/R combinations allows for tuning the braking properties of the car it could be argued that a manual proportioning valve will do the same. However the valve only adjusts the pressure balance.
Since pads have different properties they can be matched to the situation then the proportioning valve adjusted to suit the combination. I see no issue with mixing pad types/brands it is a case of finding the right combination for the intended purpose.
In my situation if I used W5's all round the rear would lock up even earlier and make hard braking even harder as the fronts will not being used to their potential as the rears lockup too early. If I go W3's on the 4 corners the front rotors will get too hot and impact on the pads performance not to mention again the rears locking before the front. If I was using the car as a daily the W3's would be more than adequate as heat and heavy braking is not a big issue.
Using a full metallic race pad on a daily drive is not the right choice. Horses for courses.
Since pads have different properties they can be matched to the situation then the proportioning valve adjusted to suit the combination. I see no issue with mixing pad types/brands it is a case of finding the right combination for the intended purpose.
In my situation if I used W5's all round the rear would lock up even earlier and make hard braking even harder as the fronts will not being used to their potential as the rears lockup too early. If I go W3's on the 4 corners the front rotors will get too hot and impact on the pads performance not to mention again the rears locking before the front. If I was using the car as a daily the W3's would be more than adequate as heat and heavy braking is not a big issue.
Using a full metallic race pad on a daily drive is not the right choice. Horses for courses.
#491
I'm guessing then hardcore people swap pads and rotors for different tracks, say if one track calls for much more trail braking vs. more straighter line hard slow-down.
Well, this has given me great pause to think.
I really appreciate the tenor of the responses here.
Well, this has given me great pause to think.
I really appreciate the tenor of the responses here.
You also need to consider weight transfer. Under heavy braking the front brakes are placed under the most load. Using different F/R combinations allows for tuning the braking properties of the car it could be argued that a manual proportioning valve will do the same. However the valve only adjusts the pressure balance.
Since pads have different properties they can be matched to the situation then the proportioning valve adjusted to suit the combination. I see no issue with mixing pad types/brands it is a case of finding the right combination for the intended purpose.
In my situation if I used W5's all round the rear would lock up even earlier and make hard braking even harder as the fronts will not being used to their potential as the rears lockup too early. If I go W3's on the 4 corners the front rotors will get too hot and impact on the pads performance not to mention again the rears locking before the front. If I was using the car as a daily the W3's would be more than adequate as heat and heavy braking is not a big issue.
Using a full metallic race pad on a daily drive is not the right choice. Horses for courses.
Since pads have different properties they can be matched to the situation then the proportioning valve adjusted to suit the combination. I see no issue with mixing pad types/brands it is a case of finding the right combination for the intended purpose.
In my situation if I used W5's all round the rear would lock up even earlier and make hard braking even harder as the fronts will not being used to their potential as the rears lockup too early. If I go W3's on the 4 corners the front rotors will get too hot and impact on the pads performance not to mention again the rears locking before the front. If I was using the car as a daily the W3's would be more than adequate as heat and heavy braking is not a big issue.
Using a full metallic race pad on a daily drive is not the right choice. Horses for courses.
#493
Moderator
iTrader: (12)
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 20,814
Total Cats: 3,051
The reason I asked about the rotors is that preexisting wear patterns including edges with lips can cause uneven pressure that can crumble an edge of a pad off. If the new pads are 1-2mm outboard due to a wider pad profile, sitting in the caliper differently, or even using new calipers or slide pins can cause a slight change in alignment. Live with it if rotors aren't turned or replaced with new pads each time. It can happen.
#494
What seems like what would be an easy question to answer.
What is required and is it possible to swap 01+ Sport ABS brakes to an 00 Non-Sport Non ABS. Do you need the nuckle or just the calipers, carriers, rotors and lines? I have an entire 01 to source parts but am hoping to forgo swapping the knuckle.
Thank you, I did try searching buy apparently I'm not entering the proper key words.
What is required and is it possible to swap 01+ Sport ABS brakes to an 00 Non-Sport Non ABS. Do you need the nuckle or just the calipers, carriers, rotors and lines? I have an entire 01 to source parts but am hoping to forgo swapping the knuckle.
Thank you, I did try searching buy apparently I'm not entering the proper key words.
#495
This thread should answer your questions.
http://www.miataturbo.net/suspension...nt-come-52016/
Maybe this one too.
http://www.miataturbo.net/build-thre...into-nb-73579/
http://www.miataturbo.net/suspension...nt-come-52016/
Maybe this one too.
http://www.miataturbo.net/build-thre...into-nb-73579/
#496
This thread should answer your questions.
http://www.miataturbo.net/suspension...nt-come-52016/
Maybe this one too.
http://www.miataturbo.net/build-thre...into-nb-73579/
http://www.miataturbo.net/suspension...nt-come-52016/
Maybe this one too.
http://www.miataturbo.net/build-thre...into-nb-73579/
I'm sorry, I'm not looking to add the ABS unit just the calipers and rotors. I can see where adding the ABS would require the knuckle swap.
#500
the real hardcore guys swap everything. The big nascar teams will build a car for each track. something like Bristol (lots of brakes used) they will spec out the biggest kit they can get their hands on. normally a 323mm rotor. for a track like daytona (never use the brakes except for pit lane) they will speck out a 299mm rotor and a tiny caliper to save weight.
__________________
OG Racing
Your Source For Motorsports Safety Equipment
WWW.OGRACING.COM
800.934.9112
703.430.3303
info@ogracing.com
OG Racing
Your Source For Motorsports Safety Equipment
WWW.OGRACING.COM
800.934.9112
703.430.3303
info@ogracing.com