technicalninja

Heads up gentlemen,
I was conversing with a member here that was not aware of the necessity of ZDDP additives for his engine.
It wouldn't surprise me if this might be overlooked easily and thus this thread...
ZDDP zinc dithiophosphate was an additive in engine oils for the better part of the last 50 years.
It's claim to fame was producing a film for parts that slid on each other; scuff resistance...
It was phased out of gasoline oils when the SN and SM oil classification hit going on 15 year ago.
It has been serious reduced in "Diesel" oils in the last 5 years.

Pretty much now-days if you're not buying oil that specifically says "ZDDP additive- do not use in modern cars" it doesn't have any to speak of.

It is a massive requirement in vehicles running high valve spring loads, especially those with valve trains that multiple the load on the lifter or tappet face (American v8s).
The easiest (least loading) valve train design is the 4 valve per cylinder with the camshaft directly acting on the valve.
This is what the BP has. The scuff loads on the lobe/shim face with the stock springs is very light...
What I am seeing is wear on the tip of the camshaft lobe that I've not seen in the past,
Even the wimpy factory stuff is wearing out the camshafts because of the lack of this additive.
Fiats (lower quality parts)with a single large valve (and a higher rate spring) didn't wear camshafts out AT ALL 20 years ago with ZDDP in the oil.

ZDDP was phased out because it has the possibility of damaging a monolithic catalytic converter. I've never see a converter that was damaged by ZDDP but I'm now seeing lots of motors damaged by the lack of ZDDP...
The motors are definitely getting past the factory warranty period which is ALL the accountants that are running the show now want.

Because of the light loads we see on the BP (and others of the same design) we don't need MUCH ZDDP.
The little 12oz bottles of Lunati break in additive I use say "good for 1 oil change". I'll split it up 4 ways and just add 3 oz to each oil change.
It will help by providing a tough film on your sliding parts. Basically it will help valve lobe to shim face, the shim buckets to head, and the piston/cylinder interface.
We don't need much of this stuff but if you want reduce wear on your high end valve train you will have to add this stuff to your oil changes...

My 2 cents...

DNMakinson

iTrader: (3)

Here is info on Mobil 1. At the end is there racing oils with lots of ZDDP. I am not sure how available they are.

Ninja.... are you saying that the ZDDP is not an issue with the newer, multi-chemistry Catalytic Converters? When you say monolithic?

What do you recon the 3 oz additive in 4 quarts is on a PPM basis?

DNM

Fireindc

iTrader: (13)

I've always ran Rotella diesel oil due to ZDDP additives. That and the oil just holds up to high heat very well. I know they reduced the amount of ZDDP in this oil, but it definitely wasn't removed entirely. They switched formulas recently and I had to look it up at the time, but ZDDP was still present.

Should I be adding ZDDP to my oil still?

DNMakinson

iTrader: (3)

Rotella T6 is now 1100 / 1200 vs the Mobil 1 European FS at 1000 / 1100 (Ph/ Zn).
DNM

HarryB

I have been running Mobil FS for that exact reason. However, I wonder what PPM the ninja-method would render in a low-zinc oil, just to have a comparison.

btb24

Amsoil has some of the highest ZDDP content but it's fairly expensive. This spec sheet is from 2011 but I assume they haven't changed their formulas. I want to add that more ZDDP does not always equal better anti-wear properties and that a zinc additive can some times actually reduce the performance of an oil especially if that oil already has a high level of ZDDP. YMMV. One source I like on engine oils and ZDDP is this blog. It is a long read and the guy is a bit of a blowhard but I think there is a lot of valuable information.

Blysccr

read much of this and the characteristics of T6 and reduced wear at higher temps is what persuaded me to run Amsoil.

technicalninja

I have a friend that became an Amsoil dealer...
He didn't fully trust their claims so he tested them himself...
He took a 1998 Infiniti I30 (car I sold him), a 2005 Pontiac GXP(car I now own) and a 1988 Fiero (he is a Fiero nut) and gave each a fresh change of oil (Castrol GTX conventional).
He then took oil samples every 2500 miles and sent them off to Blackstone and had analysis done...
Conventional was running out of it's additive package at 7500 and was toast at 10k.
He ran the conventional out to 10k only.
Then he did the same with Amsoil, just the normal synthetic, not the high ZDDP stuff. He tested every 5 k on the Amsoil.
It NEVER went away!!! He ran it out to 20K and the analysis kept coming back "continue to use oil".
He couldn't run it longer than 20k and this is his oil change interval now...
One of his customers is running it in a fleet of Priuses and changing oil at 35k!!! (with analysis at 20K)
The Amsoil stuff really does last as long as they say it can. Blake spent over 1K in Blackstone analysis proving this...

This is the type of friend I have...

In all of Amsoil's reams of test data all of the synthetics were very close to one another. Amsoil ALWAYS placed first but...
Mobil1 was right there with it. I will spend the extra on Amsoil for a special car. For the hundreds of customer cars I see each year Mobil1 and 10K oil changes are my recommendations (non-turbocharged).

DNM In all honesty I have NO idea how much ZDDP is in the 12oz bottle I purchase. I could not find that type of data for ANY of the "additive" bottles I looked up.
I also have NO evidence that 1/4 a bottle is enough for our purposes. I am assuming it is do the the lightly loaded valve train.
I haven't run an engine long enough with the additive (100K) to tell if I'm right.
Lunati is a big time camshaft builder and has a vested interest in having enough ZDDP in the oil.
That bottle should be enough to protect a healthy V8 with cam loads 5 times that of the BP.

What I do know is that for the last 10 years I have seen a growing issues of cam shaft tip wear on stock 4 valve OHC designs (with old worn out springs as well).
The metals have not gotten worse, the machining has not gotten worse, everything should be better but it is NOT!
The wear I'm seeing at 150K makes rebuilding engines far more difficult. They end up needing ALL of the valvetrain parts

From the data provided (Thanks DNM) it looks like the ZDDP has been "reduced" but from the engine damage I'm seeing it looks like it has been "eliminated".
This wear has happened over the last 15 years. From the accountant's viewpoint this is fine, from the technician's viewpoint it is not.
All engines have some form of sliding parts, even the full roller LS motors will show wear at the tip of the valve and the tip of the rocker arm.

Everything should be taken in moderation (especially advice on the internet) but this is the first time I have seen a negative comment regarding ZDDP.
I do not know if too much ZDDP is bad but I DO KNOW that the level of ZDDP in the current crop of oils is TOO LOW if you want to keep an engine past the ten year point.

I have YET to see a catalytic converter that I thought died early due to contamination...

It is interesting that the "European" formula has some of the highest levels...
The "reason" for this oil was interesting in itself...
BMW tried to not honor warranties due to customers servicing their own cars.
The courts came back "You can only enforce factory service if it is a part of the original sale".
So BMW now includes all services for 3 years, 50,000 miles FREE (nope, not free, just added on to sale)...
The oil change interval they (The Accountants, NOT the Engineers) chose was 17,000 miles.
They are "on the hook" for exactly 2 oil changes as the third happens at 51,000 and is out of warranty.
They had to go with the best oil they could supply. It's high in ZDDP...
I still advise my BMW customers to change it every 10k (5K for turbos), just not tell the dealer they did...
BMW does not want their owners working on their own cars.
They should bring them to the dealer for EVERYTHING.
Including replacements at just over 50K...

redrider706

iTrader: (4)

I recently came across Valvoline VR1 Synthetic, The Zn/Ph # is 1400/1300.
https://sharena21.springcm.com/Publi...2-ac162d889bd1

oreo

FWIW