NA with a VVT swap Question
#1
NA with a VVT swap Question
Hey guys, I am 3rd weekend into troubleshooting and I feel like I am getting no where.
I'll start with the issue I am having and follow up with things I have tested and tried before coming here.
ISSUE:
Cranking the car to start tries to start off what sounds like one cylinder but after cranking 5-10 seconds it backfires. It's not completely consistent when backfiring but it happens often enough.
THINGS I HAVE:
1) Stock VVT Batchfire CoPs
2) Injector Dynamics 650cc injectors
3) Stock VVT Bottom end and stock VVT head.
4) MS3PNP Pro
THINGS I HAVE TRIED:
1) Pulled intake mani and tested/confirmed firing and correct order of all injectors. "Cylinder1:InjectorA", "Cylinder2:InjectorD", "Cylinder3:InjectorB", "Cylinder4:InjectorC" (Cylinder 1 is front most cylinder and they count backwards.)
2) I am running stock VVT batch fire CoPs. I tested they were firing on the expect coil "CoilA:Cylinder1/4", "CoilB:Cylinder2/3"
3) Pulled an assortment of sensors like the cam and crank sensors to make sure they weren't causing issues.
4) Downloaded a base tune for Megasquirt MSPNP
5) Setup the MS3 for Sequentual injection (1,3,4,2 firing order)
6) Setup MS3 Engine Displacement for 1839ccs
7) Setup MS3 for Batch spark
8) used canBUS debugging to test all injectors, spark plugs and pump.
THINGS TO NOTE:
I have the tachout resisted to 1000k ohms
I have mostly followed Car Passion Channels guide as well as a lot of info in the VVT megathread.
I don't think I am missing anything but man I have put so many hours into this and I am stuck. I feel like it's down to a config issue in MS3 but I took a stock tune and only changed what I thought would be needed.
I'll start with the issue I am having and follow up with things I have tested and tried before coming here.
ISSUE:
Cranking the car to start tries to start off what sounds like one cylinder but after cranking 5-10 seconds it backfires. It's not completely consistent when backfiring but it happens often enough.
THINGS I HAVE:
1) Stock VVT Batchfire CoPs
2) Injector Dynamics 650cc injectors
3) Stock VVT Bottom end and stock VVT head.
4) MS3PNP Pro
THINGS I HAVE TRIED:
1) Pulled intake mani and tested/confirmed firing and correct order of all injectors. "Cylinder1:InjectorA", "Cylinder2:InjectorD", "Cylinder3:InjectorB", "Cylinder4:InjectorC" (Cylinder 1 is front most cylinder and they count backwards.)
2) I am running stock VVT batch fire CoPs. I tested they were firing on the expect coil "CoilA:Cylinder1/4", "CoilB:Cylinder2/3"
3) Pulled an assortment of sensors like the cam and crank sensors to make sure they weren't causing issues.
4) Downloaded a base tune for Megasquirt MSPNP
5) Setup the MS3 for Sequentual injection (1,3,4,2 firing order)
6) Setup MS3 Engine Displacement for 1839ccs
7) Setup MS3 for Batch spark
8) used canBUS debugging to test all injectors, spark plugs and pump.
THINGS TO NOTE:
I have the tachout resisted to 1000k ohms
I have mostly followed Car Passion Channels guide as well as a lot of info in the VVT megathread.
I don't think I am missing anything but man I have put so many hours into this and I am stuck. I feel like it's down to a config issue in MS3 but I took a stock tune and only changed what I thought would be needed.
#3
I was thinking time as well but I was afraid to be wrong and tear through the VVT solenoid and valve cover to be wrong. I will get a tune dumped tomorrow since it is almost 10:30PM here right now and I am drained. I might just decide to tear into it tomorrow to verify anyway. I don't have any base timing set in MS yet since it hasn't actually even started.
#5
Okay sorry guys, I was helping a friend move yesterday and was wayyyy to tired to get back into my garage.
I have my entire data logs and tune in this share.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...Y0?usp=sharing
All the testing was done without coils plugged in because I didn't want to keep backfiring. My neighbors still like me.
I couldn't get a timing light on it since I was doing this by myself.
I kind of looked it all over but this is my first swap and I am most likely missing something obvious or important.
Please lend me your great knowledge.
I have my entire data logs and tune in this share.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...Y0?usp=sharing
All the testing was done without coils plugged in because I didn't want to keep backfiring. My neighbors still like me.
I couldn't get a timing light on it since I was doing this by myself.
I kind of looked it all over but this is my first swap and I am most likely missing something obvious or important.
Please lend me your great knowledge.
#8
All this being said, I will try the falling spark thing to give it one more try and then pull the valve cover tonight to verify mechanical timing.
I will update this thread about 12-13 hours from now with that information.
Thanks a ton everyone, I do realllly appreciate it!
Last edited by collin; 05-24-2022 at 12:39 PM.
#11
I do however have a new idea, totally forgot to get my 90-93 coolant temp sensor. I don't know if that could cause weird changes in firing time but I don't see why it couldn't. I will run and grab one tonight to see if it helps. If not I will take the valve cover off I guess!
#12
Alright, I pulled it because I realized the oil feed was easier to move than I thought.
Engine definitely looked in time. I have never timed a VVT but from what I looked up it looks good.
I don't know where the CAM sensor should be when the trigger is passing the sensor but this is the current state.
Also just wanted to take a minute to appreciate how clean this engine is. I hadn't opened it up at all yet.
Engine definitely looked in time. I have never timed a VVT but from what I looked up it looks good.
I don't know where the CAM sensor should be when the trigger is passing the sensor but this is the current state.
Also just wanted to take a minute to appreciate how clean this engine is. I hadn't opened it up at all yet.
#15
So yall made me paranoid and question myself even though I have pictures of it in time. I pulled the valve cover back off as well as the from timing cover. Everything checks out and is perfectly in time. The slack on the top is because depending on the angle of the cams, it might see more or less tension.
One other thing. I feel like I am on to something. I have checked every sensor and output on the car. Everything works... Except for Tach out specifically to the Megasquirt. It works on the Dash but doesn't show any changes when tshooting the canbus tachout pin specifically on the MS3. I feel like this is it but I need to read a little more to understand how exactly it should reach my MS3.
One other thing. I feel like I am on to something. I have checked every sensor and output on the car. Everything works... Except for Tach out specifically to the Megasquirt. It works on the Dash but doesn't show any changes when tshooting the canbus tachout pin specifically on the MS3. I feel like this is it but I need to read a little more to understand how exactly it should reach my MS3.
#16
Cpt. Slow
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There is a tension mark on the oil pump, as well as the timing cover. Rotate from TDC 1 and 5/6th turns, which should line up with the tension mark. Release the tensioner bolt and retighten. I sometimes see the most slack a tooth or so before this mark, so I tension there. Then rotate the remaining 1/6 turn, and 2 additional, and verify you’re still in time.
#17
There is a tension mark on the oil pump, as well as the timing cover. Rotate from TDC 1 and 5/6th turns, which should line up with the tension mark. Release the tensioner bolt and retighten. I sometimes see the most slack a tooth or so before this mark, so I tension there. Then rotate the remaining 1/6 turn, and 2 additional, and verify you’re still in time.
The tachout to the actual MS3 isn't a concern? I get a signal to the dash but not the MS3. I am reconfirming how I should wire that right now too.
#18
Cpt. Slow
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon City, OR
Posts: 14,360
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If the ms3 isn’t displaying RPM, it’s an issue with cam/crank sensors, and it’ll never run. It then uses this data to send a signal to the tach, however you’re reporting otherwise, so not sure I’m under standing you correctly.
#19
Yeah so to clarify, When testing with CanBUS tshooting. My tachout pulsed at 78hz will bring my dash tach to about 2500rpm but my MS3 will never detect anything. A new thought I just had to was maybe I don't need tachout jumped on my MS3 since I am running stock 01+ cops and not LS coils right now.