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Hello all,
I am fairly new to this forum and have been trying to get around it a bit. I have been looking through the threads for this question and yes I have used the search bar if anyone asks.
So basically, I am at a point where in the next couple months I want to be upgrading my power. And my father and I who are working on a 1994 NA, we want to make around 300-400 HP in the future. We have a friend who is in the process of getting his Miata rolling under it’s own power and has suggested fe3 Or ecotec swap whole the car is still running and once we get the engines ready swap it for minimal downtime.
I am trying to decide between Fe3, ecotec swap, or just build a newer low mileage motor. And I want to turbo in the future no matter what. But what are some differences, difficulties, pros/cons about these swaps? Which should I go with?
I can chime in about the fe3. Don't do it unless you have fab skills or know people with fab skills that won't charge you an arm and a leg. It will fit in a miata with a 5 or 6 speed miata transmission. Only tool required is an angle grinder or a drill depending on if you go 5 or 6 speed. The fe3 has a lot of potential but is definitely heavier.
Not sure why all the hate for ecotec, it's not an amazing motor, but $400-600 for a 180hp engine doesn't seem all that bad, especially considering it's a grand less than the comparable new K24Z3 kit. I'm not saying I'd choose Ecotec over K if money was no object, but it's a consideration if your budget is lower than $3800. From what I've seen, it WILL need pistons if you add boost for 300-400hp, so keep that in mind.
I'm going to make my bias towards the Kswap simple... and this is coming from a diehard GM fan who has owned two Ecotecs.
If the true difference between the new Z3 swap and an Ecotec swap is $1k, then you'd have to be silly to want an Ecotec that makes 20hp+ less in most cases on an engine that is much less supported. A K-series has much stronger internals than an Ecotec if you ever chose the boosted path. Lastly, I haven't seen curb weight listed on an Ecotec swap, but I suspect its heavier than a Kswap as well based on size of both engines.
If that isn't enough to sway your opinion, lets look at the oil pans of both kits.
Nice lightweight aluminum pan that gives no serviceability issues
Heavy steel pan with design that almost appears to be an afterthought even if it works, plus makes your serpentine belt quite interesting to remove from a few people I've spoken to on it. Check out the clearance to the crank pulley.
In regards to an Ecotec Swap, I just don't see why you wouldn't save the hassle and build a n/a BP if the goal was to make 160-170whp and you had $4k to play with.
The motor is fine. The "normal" kit isn't awesome.
Quoted simply for truth. Although the fixes to a few of the kit's issues are well documented and fairly simple.
Originally Posted by Padlock
If the true difference between the new Z3 swap and an Ecotec swap is $1k, then you'd have to be silly to want an Ecotec that makes 20hp+ less in most cases on an engine that is much less supported. A K-series has much stronger internals than an Ecotec if you ever chose the boosted path. Lastly, I haven't seen curb weight listed on an Ecotec swap, but I suspect its heavier than a Kswap as well based on size of both engines.
The $1k difference is a big deal breaker to some, when budget is the deciding factor. However if you look at the Racer kit, which has a better flywheel adapter and just needs $40 at the hardware store, it's a $2700 difference. The main difference is the higher quality oil pan, yes, along with the flyhweel, which I'd gladly spend $1000 on if there was one for the ecotec swap, which is enroute, and will hopefully work out. Definitely true about the internals, OP would be smart to pay attention to that. Haven't seen any 300hp turbo ecotec builds that haven't melted pistons. To put that in perspective, that'd be like melting BP pistons at 200hp. Also make sure you're comparing similar engines, both the k24z3 and ecotec swaps claim 200hp, so no difference.
Originally Posted by Padlock
Heavy steel pan with design that almost appears to be an afterthought even if it works, plus makes your serpentine belt quite interesting to remove from a few people I've spoken to on it. Check out the clearance to the crank pulley.
If you're scared of impacting off and replacing a crank bolt, you probably shouldn't be tackling an engine swap? Also, our $7 belt has lasted 2 seasons of racing, or around 150 track hours. This belt change argument has always been brought up and it really bothers me.
Originally Posted by Padlock
In regards to an Ecotec Swap, I just don't see why you wouldn't save the hassle and build a n/a BP if the goal was to make 160-170whp and you had $4k to play with.
I realize it's not the OP's goal, but don't compare a 160-170hp high strung BP to a bone stock 2.4L ecotec, even if it only makes 170hp. The torque curve is going to be much different between the two.
Again, sounds like I'm a huge proponent of the ecotec swap, but I'm not, if we had could do it again, my friends and I would most likely choose a k-swap over the ecotec swap for our enduro car, but it has given me a lot of knowledge on the ecotec swap, and it's not as horrible as some people say. The prices from AC Delco (OE GM) are laughable, and are definitely a plus when you go through consumables. We've replaced an alternator, rear main seals, water pumps, flex plates, crank pulley bolts, many gaskets, and prices are probably 50% of OE Miata parts.
Originally Posted by dc2696
Measured the LE5 when I bought it, 300lbs w/ AC compressor, no starter, no flex plate, cast iron manifold, oem oil pan.
Same as K24 then, +/- a few pounds.
Originally Posted by sixshooter
Nobody has addressed the fact that no Miata transmission will hold the ridiculous power numbers the OP threw out.
Three or four hundred horsepower, huh? There's many thousands of dollars difference between those two numbers so you better pick one quickly.
250whp in a Miata is faster than a stock Mustang GT, for reference.
The $1k difference is a big deal breaker to some, when budget is the deciding factor. However if you look at the Racer kit, which has a better flywheel adapter and just needs $40 at the hardware store, it's a $2700 difference. The main difference is the higher quality oil pan, yes, along with the flyhweel, which I'd gladly spend $1000 on if there was one for the ecotec swap, which is enroute, and will hopefully work out. Definitely true about the internals, OP would be smart to pay attention to that. Haven't seen any 300hp turbo ecotec builds that haven't melted pistons. To put that in perspective, that'd be like melting BP pistons at 200hp. Also make sure you're comparing similar engines, both the k24z3 and ecotec swaps claim 200hp, so no difference.
Full disclosure, I did a full n/a bolt-on build on an Ecotec L61 (2.2L) on my first car (2007 Cobalt). The car with everything I could throw at it without doing head or internal work (using mostly LE5 2.4L parts which are a known upgrade) made 155whp through a FWD manual trans. Stock they typically make 120whp. *insert quite upset owner here*. I brought that car back to stock and bought a LNF (2.0 Turbo) Cobalt SS soon after. Just a tune on E47 fuel got that car right around 320whp with a peaky tq curve that would be far from ideal in any road course environment. While the community claims "ecotecs are reliable" above 300whp figure, 99% of the community is just hwy roll racing kids OR drag racers. Melted pistons even on short bursts are still a relatively common item when owners don't know any better and abuse them. Where I'm going with this is, when an n/a unopened ecotec claims 200whp, I just don't believe it. I've got plenty of reason to be skeptical. Most are making right around the 160-170whp figure like I did. K series engines (at least the popular ones to swap) frequently meet or push past this 200whp barrier.
Originally Posted by curly
If you're scared of impacting off and replacing a crank bolt, you probably shouldn't be tackling an engine swap? Also, our $7 belt has lasted 2 seasons of racing, or around 150 track hours. This belt change argument has always been brought up and it really bothers me.
Not necessarily scared of an impacting off as a Kmiata pan sits approximately the same height and still partly in front of the rack, but it's a perceived quality thing.
Originally Posted by curly
I realize it's not the OP's goal, but don't compare a 160-170hp high strung BP to a bone stock 2.4L ecotec, even if it only makes 170hp. The torque curve is going to be much different between the two. Again, sounds like I'm a huge proponent of the ecotec swap, but I'm not, if we had could do it again, my friends and I would most likely choose a k-swap over the ecotec swap for our enduro car, but it has given me a lot of knowledge on the ecotec swap, and it's not as horrible as some people say. The prices from AC Delco (OE GM) are laughable, and are definitely a plus when you go through consumables. We've replaced an alternator, rear main seals, water pumps, flex plates, crank pulley bolts, many gaskets, and prices are probably 50% of OE Miata parts.
Agreed on the tq curve varying between the two. You have many pros/cons between the two given power numbers are going to be similar.
You are bringing up fair points based on real world experience with Ecotecs, which I can completely appreciate.
Just throwing my personal experience in here with the ecotec in a miata.
Stock internals, fabricated intake manifold, modified FBR header with 3" exhaust and e85 fuel.
10-01-2019, 02:43 PM
Fe3 vs Ecotec vs Built
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