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Detonation on 1 & 4

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Old 07-21-2018 | 06:25 PM
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Default Detonation on 1 & 4

Short version:
MSM dedicated track car rebuilt last winter
MSM MS3Pro PnP ECU that has been in car for over 50 track hours PRIOR to rebuild
Wiseco 8.5:1 83.5mm pistons
Eagle rods
FlowForce 640ish injectors
Stock turbo
Stock ignition coils
93 octane
Some kind of Saab intercooler
13psi
about 218 whp
10.5-11 AFR
It ran about 10 track hours
cylinders 1 and 4 failed due to detonation

Why 1 & 4 ?


4 is on the left
4 and 1
1
4
1 on the left
2&3




Last edited by Elmos hers; 07-21-2018 at 09:18 PM. Reason: added info
Old 07-21-2018 | 07:39 PM
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what coils?

whats your timing map look like?
Old 07-21-2018 | 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mx5-kiwi
what coils?

whats your timing map look like?
Stock coils
Old 07-21-2018 | 09:17 PM
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duplicate deleted

Last edited by Elmos hers; 07-21-2018 at 09:18 PM. Reason: duplicate
Old 07-21-2018 | 10:36 PM
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Im FAR from any kind of expert but your map seems pretty conservative to me.....MT crew pelase correct if im wrong.

Don't 1 and 4 share the same coil? perhaps a coil or ecu ignition failure?

We lost an engine once in simialr style when the battery terminal was loose after electricain didn't toghten it.

+ lead was coming on and off and ended up with detonation damage.
Old 07-21-2018 | 11:16 PM
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Yes, 1 and 4 share a coil. I’m having trouble understanding how a loose connection would cause detonation. I’ve detected no misfire.
EGTs appeared to be lower on 1&4 than on 2&3
At this point I think that was due to the detonation.
Old 07-22-2018 | 12:00 AM
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We figured the bad power supply was upsetting the ecu and its internal timing thus messing with the ignition timing. I felt nothing in that circumstance either (well until the engine failed, i felt that )

Its highly unlikely but worth checking.

Your map seems conservative and your efr's 'seem' quite rich so it has to be something putting the timing off....incorrect dwell, timing trigger setting or something liek that.

Anyway, im stretched already so hopefully someone with more experience can chip in.
Old 07-22-2018 | 01:23 AM
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That's certainly not a conservative spark map on pump gas.
Old 07-22-2018 | 02:08 AM
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Way too much timing on an MSM, I typically can only get 14 degrees in at 12+psi.

You were knocking when you were tuned.
Old 07-22-2018 | 02:15 AM
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Re the map..my mistake. Brain fart, had my numbers reversed.
Old 07-22-2018 | 09:41 AM
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This map is a disaster
Old 07-22-2018 | 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by nitrodann
Way too much timing on an MSM, I typically can only get 14 degrees in at 12+psi.

You were knocking when you were tuned.
We did not observe knock when we were tuning.
I have a Chatterbox spliced into the OEM knock sensor to listen in.
Would anyone share a successful timing map for reference?
Any thoughts on why 1&4 are severely damaged and 2&3 have none?
Old 07-22-2018 | 11:29 AM
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Too much advance in boost. I don't have access to my computer to share mine but 20 degrees plus is too much in your top two rows.
Old 07-22-2018 | 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by yossi126
This map is a disaster
and this is where you add something constructive...
Old 07-22-2018 | 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by sixshooter
Too much advance in boost. I don't have access to my computer to share mine but 20 degrees plus is too much in your top two rows.
Thanks!
Old 07-22-2018 | 04:29 PM
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You are a solid 8-10deg beyond what is safe on 93 octane from 150kpa up. It's been knocking, badly, since day 1
Old 07-22-2018 | 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Savington
You are a solid 8-10deg beyond what is safe on 93 octane from 150kpa up. It's been knocking, badly, since day 1
Thanks!
Old 07-22-2018 | 09:51 PM
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As previously stated, your timing map is way way too advanced. Especially top two rows midrange rpms.

here is my timing map, which I consider pretty aggressive, and your map is way more advanced than mine.


Also check that broken piston chunks didn't damage your turbine wheel.
Old 07-22-2018 | 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by borka
As previously stated, your timing map is way way too advanced. Especially top two rows midrange rpms.

here is my timing map, which I consider pretty aggressive, and your map is way more advanced than mine.


Also check that broken piston chunks didn't damage your turbine wheel.
Thanks!
Old 07-22-2018 | 11:01 PM
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Many knock sensors don't work well. Use an actual listening device.



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