Ballpark Prediction - NB1 motor + bolt ons/ecu
#41
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Skokie, IL
Posts: 213
Total Cats: 4
Are you using hi-res firmware on your ms1? It also sounds like you should just run a little higher idle, i usually aim for 950rpm hot, it's less likely to overload and fluctuate when you use your lights, etc.
Also, GREAT numbers imho. Congrats. Now tell us, how does it feel?
Also, GREAT numbers imho. Congrats. Now tell us, how does it feel?
Either the dyno reads very low or there is something else going on with the motor. I made 138 whp with a very similar set up on 91 octane without a square top and using a Jackson Racing header. If you swapped the newer motor into an older chassis you need to run the 94-97 alternator, I do not know those details of your set up though. Your power curve does not look like most of the square top manifold dyno's I've seen, you have a sharp drop off in the upper RPM. I run a VICS manifold and don't see a drop off that severe, here is an old chart from my motor for example;
A point and a half -- Emilio's car was 11.0:1, a stock NB1 motor is 9.5:1 (NB2 is 10.0:1).
There's probably also some power available in the Adaptronic vs the MS1. If it's a stock 4-tooth trigger wheel then the timing isn't going to be as precise as the 12-1 wheel that Emilio's thread says he used.
--Ian
There's probably also some power available in the Adaptronic vs the MS1. If it's a stock 4-tooth trigger wheel then the timing isn't going to be as precise as the 12-1 wheel that Emilio's thread says he used.
--Ian
Oh, I thought I recalled reading somewhere about Savington mentioning the need for different lines/fuel pump/etc..to do it "properly". I honestly haven't done enough research to determine what that entails or if it's overkill for a car that only sees the track 5 months out of the year.
#42
I'm assuming he's saying its okay because I deleted the MAF sensor?
Oh, I thought I recalled reading somewhere about Savington mentioning the need for different lines/fuel pump/etc..to do it "properly". I honestly haven't done enough research to determine what that entails or if it's overkill for a car that only sees the track 5 months out of the year.
Oh, I thought I recalled reading somewhere about Savington mentioning the need for different lines/fuel pump/etc..to do it "properly". I honestly haven't done enough research to determine what that entails or if it's overkill for a car that only sees the track 5 months out of the year.
Doing E85 pretty much requires new injectors, because you'll need something like 60% more fuel than you would with gasoline and it's very unlikely you have that much headroom in the injectors you already have. The stock fuel pump, OTOH, has a lot more headroom than the stock injectors, so there might be enough for E85 on a naturally aspirated engine. For a high power turbo E85 build you need bigger fuel hard lines, but for an NA engine that's overkill.
Doing it "properly" means swapping out all of the fuel related components for ones that are actually rated for E85, adding a flex fuel sensor and an ECU that can read it, etc. That's a lot more work than is strictly required.
The big downside to E85 from what I can see is that it's not available at the race track (at least, not at any of the tracks around here). That means I'd need to take it there with me, and for a 2-day track weekend I'd probably need a 55 gallon drum of it, which gets into things like DOT hazmat transportation regulations and other icky stuff.
As for the ECU, timing precision is pretty important. If the spark timing is off by a degree or two, then you wind up needing to back the timing off by that degree or two as a safety margin. The NB's 4-tooth crank angle sensor is a lot more precise than the NA's cam angle sensor (no stretchy belt in between), but a 12-tooth wheel is even better. More teeth lets the ECU measure the engine speed over a short period of time, giving it a more accurate view of the rate at which the RPM is rising. How much power does that translate into on an NA build? I have no idea.
--Ian
#43
Doing E85 pretty much requires new injectors, because you'll need something like 60% more fuel than you would with gasoline and it's very unlikely you have that much headroom in the injectors you already have. The stock fuel pump, OTOH, has a lot more headroom than the stock injectors, so there might be enough for E85 on a naturally aspirated engine. For a high power turbo E85 build you need bigger fuel hard lines, but for an NA engine that's overkill.
The big downside to E85 from what I can see is that it's not available at the race track (at least, not at any of the tracks around here). That means I'd need to take it there with me, and for a 2-day track weekend I'd probably need a 55 gallon drum of it, which gets into things like DOT hazmat transportation regulations and other icky stuff.
As for the ECU, timing precision is pretty important. If the spark timing is off by a degree or two, then you wind up needing to back the timing off by that degree or two as a safety margin. The NB's 4-tooth crank angle sensor is a lot more precise than the NA's cam angle sensor (no stretchy belt in between), but a 12-tooth wheel is even better. More teeth lets the ECU measure the engine speed over a short period of time, giving it a more accurate view of the rate at which the RPM is rising. How much power does that translate into on an NA build? I have no idea.
#44
Elite Member
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Taos, New mexico
Posts: 6,760
Total Cats: 631
There is a thread somewhere on here that i followed to flash my ms1 with hi-res, and it made all the difference in the world with my idle quality.
You can adjust your idle RPM and other settings via MS as well, so try raising the idle and switching to hi-res code and you will be set.
#45
Junior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Skokie, IL
Posts: 213
Total Cats: 4
If you don't know, you are probably on the standard firmware. You NEED hi-res code on a ms1 to be able to idle smoothly, it is a huge difference. I'm not 100% sure off the top of my head how to check the firmware, just do some googling and it's all pretty easy. Actually, i know one easy way. When you pull up your injector pulsewidths in MS, do you see something like "2.1" or "2.15"? If you just see x.x it's on the standard firmware, if you see x.xx you are on hi-res. The hi-res code increases your injector resolution for more fine tuning, which results in less fluctuation and "hunting" for idle.
There is a thread somewhere on here that i followed to flash my ms1 with hi-res, and it made all the difference in the world with my idle quality.
You can adjust your idle RPM and other settings via MS as well, so try raising the idle and switching to hi-res code and you will be set.
There is a thread somewhere on here that i followed to flash my ms1 with hi-res, and it made all the difference in the world with my idle quality.
You can adjust your idle RPM and other settings via MS as well, so try raising the idle and switching to hi-res code and you will be set.
#46
Elite Member
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Taos, New mexico
Posts: 6,760
Total Cats: 631
In my case i had not a clue how to flash firmware, but there is a thread somewhere here on it and I just followed that. It was actually pretty easy, despite being a somewhat daunting task on paper.
Re-tuning is SUPER easy, just look at your AFR at idle and you can adjust your VE to get the afr at idle perfect. Once you have your idle dialed in, you can use TunerStudio's VEAL (ve analyze live) feature to auto tune in your fuel map, just make sure you have good target afrs and your wbo2 is accurate.
I'm not saying this will 100% fix your problems, but it definitely fixed my "hunting" idle i'd have from time to time.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
StratoBlue1109
Miata parts for sale/trade
21
09-30-2018 01:09 PM