Adamasher

Hey guys! I’m looking for some advice, I’m doing my 250k mile service on my msm. Plans are oil, fuel filters, brake fluid, clutch fluid, front engine rebuild(timing components, water pump, acc belts), front main seal, radiator flush, injectors, and turbo. I have a couple questions.
1. should I replace or rebuild injectors?
2. I can’t find a turbo rebuild kit, is there another option for a turbo replacement? I don’t want to go with much more boost just because it’s a high mileage engine and I want to keep it going for as long as possible. I would love to hear yalls thoughts.
3. is there anything else I should take a look at doing with this stuff?

curly

iTrader: (25)

at 250k, your going to break so many studs and fluid lines trying to get that turbo off. If it's still performing and not leaking boost, water, or oil, leave it. There are so many seals, lines, and gaskets that are NLA for the MSM, you're better off buying an FM or Kraken manifold and an off the shelf Garrett.

Same goes for injectors. I'd be surprised if you can find OE injectors at a reasonable price. Looks like they're $185 each on my Mazda account. Send them in for rebuild.

You'd have to give us more history on the rest of the parts. Why the radiator flush? Is it a newer radiator? Maybe just replace it if it's the stock plastic one. I can't imagine it's the original at 250k. I would look at replacing any rubber hoses that are soaked in oil or looking dry rotted. Any leaks at the brake master cylinder or clutch master? No point in replacing fluid if the masters themselves need replacing.

Typical parts on a timing belt job include timing belt, pulleys, water pump, accessory belts, crank seal, cam seals, valve cover gasket, and timing covers if they're soaked in oil.

Don't go into this job thinking you know what the car needs. Take the under tray off and look over the engine top to bottom with a very bright flash light, looking for coolant leaks, oil leaks, brake fluid leaks, and failing components. Then order parts and hopefully you'll have less surprises when you do dive in.

Adamasher

I surely am willing to leave the car down for a little while during the project. Turbo is starting to make a nonstop squeal noise. Not sure if it can even be repaired. Manifold with an off the shelf sounds like a good idea though. Replacing the radiator is definitely an option, on that subject I might want to get a thicker replacement if someone sells a kit. I live in Florida and the car doesn’t like interstate speeds in 100 degree temps. I replaced the clutch master and slave about a month ago when I started noticing the pedal loosing pressure. I’m looking for things I should replace while doing an in depth job like this. I want to keep this car going for as long as possible. Also if there are any upgrades that would be worth while I am open to those as well. Not necessary looking for more power but if it comes with it that’s okay, my goal is more on the side of reliability. Also if anyone has specific brands they have bought from for the stuff like the timing kit I would love some reputable links.

curly

iTrader: (25)

Only problem is I haven't heard of a MSM running a small turbo like 2554 or similar with stock injectors/ECU. So if you go with a different manifold/turbo, bigger injectors, ECU, and wideband might be required, which definitely adds a lot to the project budget.

Your best bet is probably a used MSM turbo and/or manifold from ebay, preferably with a bunch of water and oil lines still attached, so if any of yours break during removal, you'll have replacements.

Adamasher

I had a feeling that would be the case. When I’m ready to start purchasing I’ll search around for a some of the stuff used. Maybe I’ll find a used megasquirt on marketplace. Does it make sense to use an oem Turbo if my goal is longevity? I’ve heard bad things about this turbo and I know I have to add oil occasionally and I’ve been told my other MSM guys that’s because the turbo burns oil. It has always been my understanding that a turbo shoudnt burn oil and won’t until it’s worn down some.

curly

iTrader: (25)

Well I didn't want to say it, but at 250k, I'd be looking into replacing the piston rings, they're probably half if not more of your oil burn issues. You keep giving me new information with squealing turbo and oil consumption, so sorry if my recommendation keeps changing too. With any of these changes outside of a timing belt replacement, you're also disturbing the status quo of the engine/turbo. They've all been wearing out together, make one change like rebuilding the head or replacing the turbo, and the rest can fail quickly, if not immediately. I've seen refreshed heads increase compression enough to require new rings, even at 160k. Scope creep could get extremely expensive with a project like this, It'd be a much simpler recommendation if this was a standard BP, and not a MSM.

I personally think the turbo is great. It's just a little sad that you can install an intake, intercooler, downpipe, boost controller, and sometimes injectors/ECU/wideband and you're topped out at 200-230hp. I've pushed 240 on 3 different MSM engines, and all three blew the turbos in short order.

Adamasher

Okay so maybe I would have better luck with a full refresh? I knew it would be on the table. If I go that route I think I would be inclined to shoot for the 250 hp mark if I was going to rebuild it. Do you have some recommendations for a rebuild? One question I have is should I get oem/oem equivalent intervals or is there something better? My goal with a build would be to get some more power out of it but doesn’t need to be a bunch. I would like to be able to get 100-150k out of this next engine. Can I get 250hp out of this engine and it still be easy and reliable to deal with? EDIT: can I just replace rings and bearings and gaskets like with the flyin Miata kit? I’ll obviously get the block and heads done up at a machine shop.

Crarrs

iTrader: (3)

I'm selling an MSM-specific Megasquirt on the forum now. Look for it in the classifieds and reach out if you're interested.

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

Everything on FM that isn't bespoke can be purchased elsewhere more cheaply.

I would do forged low compression pistons, Chinese forged rods, have the head done (paying attention to valve guide wear and replacing valve stem seals), and buy a new oil pump from Ford, Mazda, or Boundary Engineering. The water pump and timing idler pulleys go without saying. A new o-ring for the CAS, which is a common leak point, will come with the master gasket kit.

There are radiator upgrades which reuse the stock fans. If you are having trouble at highway speeds I would recommend checking that the factory undertray and ducting are intact between the bumper mouth and the radiator, with no openings for airflow to escape.

The Kracken kit is nice. Some assembly required if you intend to keep the rest of your exhaust, but that's normal.

You will pick up power just getting away from the stock ECU anyway. Aftermarket injectors should go with the ECU if you go that route, for headroom and for the power increase.

Jesse99James

Sixshooter is correct, while I am glad FM is still in business and supporting the older generations, my engine rebuild order was a little frustrating. Prices were pretty good and you save on shipping from multiple sources and easily qualify for free shipping but only IF they have most of the items in stock. When I ordered in 2022 about half the items were OOS. I had to get a custom parts quote and then wait for corrections on the quote before I could order. After it was a little confusing as to what I still needed to order to fill in the gaps.

If you're going to rebuild, make a list, read forged build recommendations and add part numbers. Search for the best prices and see if you can't order most from one or a few places, shipping quickly adds up. Jim Mellis Mazda parts catalog is great for finding OEM part numbers. Even if you aren't shooting for more than 250 WHP, if you're going to pull the engine you might as well throw in cheap, forged rods. I've only heard one mention they had to have the upper bushings machined slightly to meet specs and not fit too tight. If you're considering an aftermarket ECU, you can tune out some of the frustrating issues with the OEM ECU and get great advice and guidance here when you encounter tuning issues. I'm getting closer to finishing an 18 psi tune (MS3Pro P&P) on my '04 MSM that had the FM, full Garrett upgrade kit installed by the original owner. Only a few items are left to polish off, more accurate acceleration enrichment, tweaking closed loop boost control to see if I can't minimize the rare spike to boost cut, and fine tuning knock protection (need to hook up my det cans so I can listen myself). Overall the ECU has taken a lot of time but it's been driveable from the get go. I struggled to get mine to idle coming to a stop, the tuner also struggled with mine and another MSM but it's been drivable since day one. By the second or third revision I was into boost. I'm glad I learned and had great help from the tuner, he communicated well with each revision as to what was changing and why, answering questions.

Beware, while you're in there syndrome can set in, you might find yourself searching for 8.6:1 or 9:1 forged pistons. I found a deal on eBay from another Miata owner, NIB Supertech 8.6:1 pistons with rings. If you are like me and don't want to mess with buying more tools for grinding ring gaps, compressing the rings to install pistons, and aren't sure you will figure out if the engine needs OS bearings (might be +1/+2 at 250k miles), paying for labor and expertise at a machine shop adds up quickly. A ball hone garage job might work ok but at your mileage you shuold check for cylinder bore wear. You really don't want to find out all the labor needs to be redone finding it still burns oil or has lower compression or weak leakdown numbers. Better to get it measured after teardown (more tools to order) and plan on using .5mm or 1mm OS pistons/rings. The rabbit hole can suddenly drop off.

As for the radiator, an OEM MSM specific radiator is said to outperform the OEM N/A NB radiator, even many of the thicker aluminum rads. Adding a coolant reroute is always a good idea as is adding ducting to better seal off passages where air can bypass the radiator. Oops, I just noticed Sixshooter addressed this. Undertray and fans first, radiator second but make sure it's the MSM specific rad if you're purchasing a replacement. As stated, Kraken kit is a bargin and I too am unsure if the OEM ECU would be able to handle fueling an upgraded turbo/kit. Even if you stick with the OEM boost psi (8?), air flow will likely increase with a better manifold, turbo, and exhaust. 8 psi on a newer setup /= 8 psi on the OEM (IHI?) turbo.

And finally what I came here to say, many MSM owners with the original turbo have removed it and even when they know to be extra careful of the drain "hose", it often breaks. If you can find one it'll likely be used from a parts recycler as I believe they are NLA, no longer available. The few I saw last year on eBay all looked to be bent. FM uses adaptors for their GT2560 drain hose to the MSM oil pan. I replaced that hose with one from NAPA (buna rubber?) that could handle oil exposure but it was slightly smaller I.D. making it extremely difficult to fit over the barbed fittings. If you decide to remove the OEM turbo to rebuild it you might have to replace that drain pipe or figure out how to install a more common hose setup. Like others said, the rings are likely the main reason you need to add oil but if the turbo is squealing pull the intake hose off and check to see if the impeller is hitting the housing. The bearings are probably worn allowing more play and maybe oil is slightly slipping past the seals into the the intake or exhaust. Lots to diagnose and consider.

Start saving money, I was lucky to find a 56k-miles engine from a wrecked MSM about an hour away. It wasn't cheap, $2400 or $2500 but it was in very good shape. After I built that engine I pulled my ~31k-mile engine out. Total cost (wasn't a budget build) was closer to $9-10k (new BelMetric bolts, Boundary Engineering oil pump, FluidDampr crank damper, head refresh with stronger valve springs, forged rods/pistons). My car is getting to be quite fast as I slowly advance timing from the conservative base map my tuner provided. Yesterday while out on a tuning run, a Tesla X noticed my rate of acceleration squirting around a car in the slow lane. About a mile down the highway we both took a 270 degree clover leaf exit onto another highway. Just before the merge point I had to slow down because of an SUV ahead of me but after checking for traffic I hit 18 psi in 3rd gear just as the Tesla was about to merge. I opened up a large gap as he was checking traffic and it didn't close much until I moved over to the slow lane and braked hard. He must have been going 100 mph as he flew past me. I waved and once I realized what it was I burst into laughter. I don't street race but I had a feeling he would go WOT from how he was driving before the exit. My ~275 WHP and 2540 lbs versus what was probably the base model X with 670HP and 5200-5400 lbs, nice!

BUILD IT!

Crarrs

iTrader: (3)

This is a newer aftermarket option I saw mentioned somewhere a few months back. No personal experience with it, and I haven't seen any actual user reviews yet either. But at least it exists.
https://www.gryphontek.com/products/...vFH8LSCI_akM34

Gee Emm

At that mileage, I second building it too. I just bit the bullet when I bent the rods on mine, with a full forged build with all the goodies. Didn't go low compression though, as it sees more street than track.

Even with tons of TLC, that is a lot of kms. At that point there are so many things wearing out that it is best not to start, because if you do you will end up with pretty much a full rebuild anyway. If you do start, do it once properly, so you don't have to go back and fix something else.

There is a formula for turboing an MX5, which is effectively what you are doing given how much Mazda cheaped out when building the MSM. Yes, you will need an ecu, injectors and forged rods (the stockies are bananas on Viagra, and eventually it wears off). New pistons at that mileage, rings bearings and an oil pump. I went with a Kraken manifold and Pulsar clone of a Garrett 2860 GTX2., but I was after moahr power, there are others that might better meet your needs. You will want to look at the clutch too.

Jesse99James

That oil drain hose kit looks similar to the one FM sells, only cheaper. My FM2 Garrett upgraded car uses that setup to adapt the MSM pan to the GT2560 turbo. Seeing that picture with the fittings already installed makes me cringe, why didn't I think of that. I had to old hose, knew the length but couldn't find an exact matching I.D. hose locally. I didn't want to pay 10x as much for the FM kit since I didn't need the fittings. I got the hose for $14 at NAPA but unfortunately they were nearing the end of their stock, the piece I bought was curved. That built in curve from being wrapped around the inside of a hose reel made installation more difficult. I removed the lower pan fitting inserting it into the hose up on my workbench. Then I struggled for more than an hour trying to force the hose up onto the lower barbed fitting under the turbo. That kit is worth the money even when it's not on sale. I hope to never need to replace mine again but might grab that kit to put into my spares box.

Man do I love this place...bananas on Viagra!

I went 8.6:1 compression simply because the Supertech pistons (lower expansion alloy) I was looking at purchasing happened to be listed on eBay for a great price. Otherwise I might have chosen 9:1 or 9.5:1 like OEM. The lower compression allows more timing which according to what I read more than makes up in overall power giving up little in daily driving. I also had 3.63 gears installed before I was fully tuned so I'm not sure if I actually notice the difference in compression and there was a 3-4 month period between driving each engine because of installation and clutch backorder delays. So, with higher compression pistons, it might feel slightly more responsive at lower RPM around town but be down slightly compared to higher RPM power under boost...at least that's how I understood it. My 8.6:1 feels very responsive and the GT2560 turbo gets into lower boost just after 2000 RPM, rarely am I below 2500 - 3000 where it really starts building boost. Where I'm at with tuning I'm looking to decrease the throttle response, it's not twitchy but cruising around town is only using the first inch (or less) of pedal movement before it's dipping into boost.