Hi,
I am running a 92 NA6 with a 95 1.8 swap and a Kraken top mount kit with his 3" exhaust.
Speedefi
Bosch EV14 700cc Injectors
Toyota COP Kit
BKR7E Plugs gapped to 0.024

I have a fairly reputable remote tuner that has been tuning the car.
I have reached the end of the session and the car has been performing fairly well but am still having issues.

I can do a WOT pull through 2nd, 3rd or 4th to rev limiter without issues.
But if I start to row through the gears 2nd to 3rd to 4th with WOT I get misfires almost always in the 5500 rpm range in all these gears.
The tuner has not been able to resolve this.

I do not have the knowledge to play with the tune and will have to find someone who can either tune it out or let me know what mechanical issues I could be having if any.

Curious if anyone would have a look at the log and the map.

Cheers
Jason

 

Try a .022 or .020 gap. I don't see anything terribly wrong with the log/map, although I will say your 11.9afr target at 180 should probably start at 140ish range. Others may say differently, but that's my opinion.

 

Thanks for the response. I had tried gaping the plugs to 0.020 prior to the COP install. I would think I should have plenty of spark now? I could try this again.

 

I spoke with the guys at Speedyefi regarding this issue and they suggested some changes to my map.
Injector Output to Paired.
Squirts per cycle to 2.
Trigger Filter to Weak.
So I headed out for a pull test. I am happy to report that the car pulled hard with no misfires through the gears.

This changed my cold startup. It started fairly quickly then idled poorly for a few seconds before it settled.
I will have to revisit this. I have hated how this car starts cold. I have been playing with this for months.
After a lot of reading, I now have a pretty good understanding of the start-up procedure. Very frustrating event.
No matter what I did I could not get a real nice cold start. I have tried every combination of fuel/air.
My lawn tractor starts better than this car. Maybe I will have better luck with these changes.

See attached log and map of these changes for those interested.

 

So with this misfire resolved I decided to start over with my start-up settings.

I know it's common to dump a bunch of fuel into the cranking enrichment but always felt it was flooding and in turn backfiring. So I previously had the best results with lower priming pulse and lower cranking enrichment.
This may have been because of the previous settings, but not sure.
Maybe it just needed even more fuel. It was close but I needed large IAC values and would rev hang a bit at 2000rpm when I bumped up the crank to run taper for a fuel heat soak issue.

So I downloaded and was looking at an MS3 base tune posted at https://trubokitty.com/#/tune (Braineack)
I was surprised at how much fuel was used in cranking enrichment for the startup.
So I decided to take these values and insert them into my map.

With these settings, I had lower IAC cranking values and a ton more cranking enrichment, and I bumped my priming pulse backup.
I increased my crank to run taper to 6, and cranking advance angle to 10 deg.

My ASE and WUE seemed fine before so I did not make any changes there with maybe a bit more ASE. The ASE was well set up for heat soak so did not change that curve.

I haven't had a chance to do a true cold start but was surprised that the car seems to start fairly quickly. Maybe the COP's helped here but not sure.
I hope this is going to work when cold.

My question is what kind of AFR should I be seeing when the car first starts up, as well as what AFR when ASE is on and again when WUE is on? Am I still aiming for 14's?

I am guessing initially when it fires it will be rich due to the fuel added to start.

But when ASE is on what value here since I can control this fairly easily?

See attached my revised map.

 

So now that I have reverted back to 2 squirts per engine cycle to solve the misfires in boost during wot I am now back to a rough idle when the engine is hot.
Idles fine when cold but once warmed up it hunts a bit and the AFR's bounce around a bit.
Fix one thing and another arises.
I can tune out the idle issue by adding more fuel in the VE table.
Then it will idle perfectly but the AFR is at 12.

Big injector woes or what?

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

Post a log the car idling so we can see what may be the cause. But looking at your msq, your ignition idle advance correction is backwards. Negative deltas should increase ignition timing and positive deltas should reduce it.

 

Thank you for the response. I will log this idle issue and post asap.

The tuner tells me :
"There is no way to fix idle with "big" injectors, batch injectors, and pump gas. The injectors by design don't like the small pulse width you would need to run on 2 squirts to get a 14 ish afr idle. I use 1 squirt per engine cycle as a "hack" but it gets the job done."

However, when I set to 1 squirt per engine cycle I get misfires in boost with WOT. This hack is not working for me.

Are these Bosch EV14 700cc injectors too large?
I mean Kraken sold them with the kit , I would think they would do ok.

Other than this hot idle issue I think everything else has been ok.

 

Your tuner is correct. Batch firing bigish injectors will net a rougher idle than batch firing stock sized injectors or using sequential injection. He is also correct that it will need to run around 14AFR at idle to feel good. That said, it shouldn't be hunting a bunch so there may be something else going on like too aggressive EGO PID settings or ignition timing. Without a log I'm just guessing, but my guess is that EGO is too aggressive at idle.

 

92, If you want to check out my idle advance table it's linked here :
https://tunes.speeduino.com/#/t/8y13...dvanceSettings

When the timing advances to correct the idle, the car does have more NVH, so I'm not sure that it would really address your problem.
I initially setup my table backwards and didn't notice until I was monitoring my ignition advance. I think there's some documentation on the speeduino wiki about how the delta value is calculated, but it seems like it should be reversed to me.

 

I logged my rough idle this evening.
Please find attached the log and the current map.

If anyone has any advice to make this a bit better it sure would be appreciated.
Maybe I will need to convert my cops to sequential?
Do I need to consider going to a different injector?
Would closed loop idle help manage this?

Tuner has advised to bump up the IAC and retard the timing.

Cheers
J

 

So I did retard the timing a bit, open the IAC a bit more and added a little more fuel to the idle range and the idle did improve some. Bearable. The idle doesn't bounce to much but the AFR's do. It's kinda like it has performance cams. Idle is bouncing around at around 13. Not ideal but theses injectors aren't completely happy at idle.
I will post another log of where I am at now. Maybe it's not going to be possible to tune this out without possibly going sequential. Maybe some more advice and tweaking may make it ok?

 

I forgot to hit "Reply" yesterday, but this is what I typed out:
Nothing seems obviously wrong at first glance to me. Although I said your idle advance timing is backwards, it seems to do the right thing in your log. Maybe SpeedyEFI works different than MS in this regard.

Do you know if your injector characterization is accurate? Big injectors are more sensitive to bad data.

I think your tuner has the right idea. More air (and fuel) and less ignition timing could help.

What would help is to convert your injection from batch fire to sequential. I don't know what needs to change with SpeedyEFI, but in MS is a rewire to the options port. Sequential COPs will not help if you're still using batch fire injection.

Today:
Maybe try tuning off EGO at idle and see if it helps. If it does improve, then something is off with your injector data. Ultimately you should think of moving to sequential injection, but 750cc injectors shouldn't be THAT bad. You could also increase the idle target as a last resort.

 

What wideband controller are you using?

 

So, I have continued to play around with the idle, and spark. As I retard the spark, I need to correct the fuel. It's idling much better but higher. Idling at about 1050-1100 it seems to be decent with an AFR of about 13.5-14.0. I think I am going to work towards rewiring to sequential injection as this is going to bother me.
Yes, I confirmed the idle advance correction is backwards as compared to MS. But does work as it should. Wideband is an AEM X series.

Disable EGO at idle. Not sure I have seen this option?

It is possible the injector characteristics are not set perfectly. I have wondered this before and questioned the effects of this. I was not able to find any defined settings for these. The manufacturer was not able to provide.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

That sounds ok for now. And yes, sequential fuel should help quite a bit.

The AEM X series is good, but have you made sure there are no ground offsets? Does yours have a gauge that you can compare with your readings in TunerStudio?

Go to Tuning > AFR/O2 > Active Above RPM. Set it higher than your idle, like 1300.

When the injector characteristics are wrong it shows up as a oddly shaped VE table. Although not your case, bigger injectors with pump gas don't have a lot of duty cycle at idle, so slightly wrong injector data can cause a rough idle because a 1% commanded fuel change in EGO correction is acting more like a 3% or more actual change, which is then compounded by the batch fire. I hope I described that well, it's hard to explain.

 

Ok, thanks.
I am going try this. It is possible the injector characteristics are not bang on. I was unable to find this info online. Bosch was unable to provide.

 

I am using EV14-750cc injectors and still using batch injection and have no issues at idle.

Fully warmed up, with an idle of 930rpm and 80F mat, the injector pulse width is ~1.69mS for 14.7AFR.
At 100F CLT, with an idle of 1200rpm and 80F mat, the injector pulse width is ~1.9mS for 12.7AFR.

Your attached idle plot, starts with a CLT at 93, which goes down as time progresses. Why is that? Is the engine up to operating temp?
Your map signal seems to be jumping around far more than mine does. You may want to increase the averaging setting to see if that helps.

The flow report that came with my injectors indicated a .75mS dead time at 14v.
So I have set my MS2 to .8mS at 13.2v with .1mS per volt correction.

 

This is interesting news thank you I think my tuner my have dropped the ball here. I am starting to suspect my car was tuned with incorrect injector data characteristics.
I am going to have another tuner take a look at this as I will need my whole tune corrected if these values need to be changed. I will report back with the results.

 

So to follow up on this post. I finally gave up on the Speedyefi and bought an MS3Pro.
The car was running pretty decent on the SpeedyEFI but would never cold start properly.
It would always start just not well. Tuning in boost was a real pain as well.

Problems solved with the MS3Pro. No more cold start issues no more misfires, no more problems tuning in boost.
Some people may have luck with the SpeedyEFI unit but I did not.
Almost a year of me tweaking startup settings...I also paid 3 different tuners...until I threw in the towel.

Cars tuned well now on the MS3pro at around 13 psi probably around 220 hp. Starts as it should under all conditions.

I have attached some files.
My last map when using the SpeedyEfi, my current map on the MS3Pro and the last datalog pull when tuning,

Here is a view of some data entered into Virtual Dyno.