hustler's dyno thread
#122
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just this absolute garbage one I made on my way from Dallas to Austin on sunday. I had a suitcase in the passenger floor and thought...why not make a vid.
so here's a 5th gear pull. This car is retarded in traffic.
I played with an orange gt3rs on the way into austin...I was absolutely shocked by what my car can do. Its not faster...but if one beats me up on the track I can only blame my skill behind the wheel. Its pretty cool when you get the thumb-up from a formidable car like that.
so here's a 5th gear pull. This car is retarded in traffic.
I played with an orange gt3rs on the way into austin...I was absolutely shocked by what my car can do. Its not faster...but if one beats me up on the track I can only blame my skill behind the wheel. Its pretty cool when you get the thumb-up from a formidable car like that.
#124
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I started thinking today about MBP, LPP, and detonation.
I think I may have the car tuned a hair too aggressively. I'm starting to think the best, safest way to tune this car is with fuel. I'm considering retuning my spark tables on 91-octane, then running 93-octane in the car. I think that is sufficient headroom, and 2 gallons of purple gets me a 93-octane fuel cocktail for Oklahoma races. I also learned today that WOT at 4000rpm isn't any easier on the motor than 8000rpm. Full boost is full boost...if anything higher RPM is more forgiving.
Questions:
Are LPP and MBT synonymous?
Are my MBT driven spark values safe considering I was able to advance 2-degrees and not incur detonation past the MBT values?
What does everyone else think about tuning for a lower octane?
I think I may have the car tuned a hair too aggressively. I'm starting to think the best, safest way to tune this car is with fuel. I'm considering retuning my spark tables on 91-octane, then running 93-octane in the car. I think that is sufficient headroom, and 2 gallons of purple gets me a 93-octane fuel cocktail for Oklahoma races. I also learned today that WOT at 4000rpm isn't any easier on the motor than 8000rpm. Full boost is full boost...if anything higher RPM is more forgiving.
Questions:
Are LPP and MBT synonymous?
Are my MBT driven spark values safe considering I was able to advance 2-degrees and not incur detonation past the MBT values?
What does everyone else think about tuning for a lower octane?
Last edited by hustler; 02-25-2009 at 05:34 PM.
#125
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also, there's decent stuff in here for newbs:
Motorsport Developments - Technical Articles by Stu
I think the turbo sizing, spark tuning, boost control, and compressor map articles are required reading.
Motorsport Developments - Technical Articles by Stu
I think the turbo sizing, spark tuning, boost control, and compressor map articles are required reading.
#126
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stolen from Miata.net:
sorry about leaving out a remarkable detail.
I also think its a reasonable assumption that MBT and PPP/LPP/PCP are synonymous, but how could I advance spark past MBT, not incur detonation, and not raise cylinder pressure? I'm starting to think there is a lot...and I mean a lot of headroom for more that 15psi from the tater in this motor. The only thing I can come up with is that my values at MBT and the negligible advance is that there is a lot of headroom in this motor. A lot.
Originally Posted by RodH
Aha, NOW he tells us he has 8.5:1 CR ...
Oh well ... interesting, all the same
... and on the question of PPP vs MBT: Kind-of. If you set the advance for each RPM so that the motor has rotated to the best position to push the piston down (~17ATDC?) in the same time the burn has reached it's peak pressure, then you should have the best torque.
Thanks,
Rod
Oh well ... interesting, all the same
... and on the question of PPP vs MBT: Kind-of. If you set the advance for each RPM so that the motor has rotated to the best position to push the piston down (~17ATDC?) in the same time the burn has reached it's peak pressure, then you should have the best torque.
Thanks,
Rod
I also think its a reasonable assumption that MBT and PPP/LPP/PCP are synonymous, but how could I advance spark past MBT, not incur detonation, and not raise cylinder pressure? I'm starting to think there is a lot...and I mean a lot of headroom for more that 15psi from the tater in this motor. The only thing I can come up with is that my values at MBT and the negligible advance is that there is a lot of headroom in this motor. A lot.
#128
Hustler, I posted the following in your other thread on the MS forum:
Because your dyno's resolution is worse than how much power you would lose if you were advanced past MBT timing. A number of 1% of peak is what I hear in OEM circles for every 3-5 degrees plus or minus MBT. That's probably a smaller number than the resolution of any kind of commercial dynamometer. Things like ambient temp and pressure, altitude, gasoline octane etc. will always change MBT timing, which can of course be taken care of only by closed-loop control.
Since these changes are inevitable in real world conditions, its a safe bet to run 2-3 degrees south of MBT. Obviously there's no way to tell accurately which side of MBT you really are on, but that can be taken care of by using a calibrated EGT gauge when you're on the dyno. Also, OEMs who dont have the luxury of closed-loop spark control will typically run pig rich at higher boost to avoid detonation rather than adaptively retarding after a knock event has already occured. So you are on the right track as far as your post #124 is concerned.
Because your dyno's resolution is worse than how much power you would lose if you were advanced past MBT timing. A number of 1% of peak is what I hear in OEM circles for every 3-5 degrees plus or minus MBT. That's probably a smaller number than the resolution of any kind of commercial dynamometer. Things like ambient temp and pressure, altitude, gasoline octane etc. will always change MBT timing, which can of course be taken care of only by closed-loop control.
Since these changes are inevitable in real world conditions, its a safe bet to run 2-3 degrees south of MBT. Obviously there's no way to tell accurately which side of MBT you really are on, but that can be taken care of by using a calibrated EGT gauge when you're on the dyno. Also, OEMs who dont have the luxury of closed-loop spark control will typically run pig rich at higher boost to avoid detonation rather than adaptively retarding after a knock event has already occured. So you are on the right track as far as your post #124 is concerned.
#129
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So I'm going to run to the dyno and work on finding MBT again, rolling back 2* from each. Then, for the 91-octane consideration, should I just back off another 2 degrees and rely on my knock sensor?
Sadly enough...my car is tuned so well right now that it doesn't feel fast anymore. Pulling that spark out is going to make me sad. lol
Sadly enough...my car is tuned so well right now that it doesn't feel fast anymore. Pulling that spark out is going to make me sad. lol
#130
I would use 91 and do a spark sweep in the relevant cells to get close to MBT using the dyno. Then look at the EGT and advance until it maxes out. Back off couple degrees from that in a 1000-1500 rpm band around where peak torque occurs (most likely area of detonation). I think that should get you 99% close to the edge on 91, and far away from trouble on 93.
This is all assuming your AFRs are where they should be. Pig rich 10.5-11.0 in the peak torque and above region is very safe. I wouldn't care much about other areas, as long as its in the 11.5-12:1 area.
Make sure you use a good EGT gauge. Not a commercial one like autometer or something stupid.
This is all assuming your AFRs are where they should be. Pig rich 10.5-11.0 in the peak torque and above region is very safe. I wouldn't care much about other areas, as long as its in the 11.5-12:1 area.
Make sure you use a good EGT gauge. Not a commercial one like autometer or something stupid.
#133
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I would use 91 and do a spark sweep in the relevant cells to get close to MBT using the dyno. Then look at the EGT and advance until it maxes out. Back off couple degrees from that in a 1000-1500 rpm band around where peak torque occurs (most likely area of detonation). I think that should get you 99% close to the edge on 91, and far away from trouble on 93.
This is all assuming your AFRs are where they should be. Pig rich 10.5-11.0 in the peak torque and above region is very safe. I wouldn't care much about other areas, as long as its in the 11.5-12:1 area.
Make sure you use a good EGT gauge. Not a commercial one like autometer or something stupid.
This is all assuming your AFRs are where they should be. Pig rich 10.5-11.0 in the peak torque and above region is very safe. I wouldn't care much about other areas, as long as its in the 11.5-12:1 area.
Make sure you use a good EGT gauge. Not a commercial one like autometer or something stupid.
My target is 12.4 at 101kpa, 11.8 in boost up to 7psi, 11.5 above that. These #'s made the most power actually. Now I'm back to questioning my AFR's. Why do you think I should go so much fatter? Going richer than 11.5 hurt torque, bad...and lots of people think 11.5:1 is safe at 14.7psi as a rule.
I have a Greddy/Omori EGT...waiting on BEGi to send my fitting so I can use it, lol.
Also, should I expect different spark values now that I have COPs? Actually, will anything be different aside from drivability?
#135
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This will be dynodynamics horsepower, like a man.
#137
My target is 12.4 at 101kpa, 11.8 in boost up to 7psi, 11.5 above that. These #'s made the most power actually. Now I'm back to questioning my AFR's. Why do you think I should go so much fatter? Going richer than 11.5 hurt torque, bad...and lots of people think 11.5:1 is safe at 14.7psi as a rule.
#138
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First get the fuel map sorted out. Go down to the 10.5-11.0 range around the peak torque area, then you'll see for yourself that your MBT timing would have advanced 3-5 degrees in those areas. I guarantee you, you'll make more torque this way than running at 11.8 and lower advance.
I see how adding fuel can prevent detonation, but if I'm hitting "peak cylinder pressure" before knock, then adding fuel and advance will not increase torque, right?
I'm asking, not arguing.
edit:
this thread is reaching epic "how to dyno-tune a car" status.
#139
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semi on topic:
I just realized that the hydra has a spark aux trim map. if I set my main spark map to MBT, then I can use the aux map to reduce from that. say if I decide to run Water inj to obtain MBT reliably... when the water runs out, the flow sensor can trigger the "I suck" map.
it also has an anti-lag trim map which does the same thing. just ground an input and bam. or rather, not bam.
I just realized that the hydra has a spark aux trim map. if I set my main spark map to MBT, then I can use the aux map to reduce from that. say if I decide to run Water inj to obtain MBT reliably... when the water runs out, the flow sensor can trigger the "I suck" map.
it also has an anti-lag trim map which does the same thing. just ground an input and bam. or rather, not bam.
#140
Simple terms, richer mixture needs more time to burn hence needs more advance to reach the optimum PPP, which is between 12-20 ATDC depending on the engine. For a bore size of 80 to 90 mm, 14-16 ATDC seems reasonable.
Thats why MBT (max. brake torque) timing advances with a richer AFR.
You're hitting pcp for THAT combination of AFR & timing. That doesn't mean that's the best pcp you can achieve for your engine. All I'm saying is, a safer way to make equal or higher torque is to run richer and more advanced. Try it, you might be surprised at the result.
Thats why MBT (max. brake torque) timing advances with a richer AFR.
You're hitting pcp for THAT combination of AFR & timing. That doesn't mean that's the best pcp you can achieve for your engine. All I'm saying is, a safer way to make equal or higher torque is to run richer and more advanced. Try it, you might be surprised at the result.