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35V rating at a minimum.
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LOL 12V. But the ignition systems can run alot more which I found out the hard way when I was a young boy holding onto a spark plug lead whilst my dad cranked the engine!
Thats why im concerned about the ignition system. The last thing I want is to melt wires because there to thin or get a cap blow up Thanks Reverant 35V min |
Good thing we dont have coils amplifying voltage throughout the rest of our electrical systems :giggle:
The cap is there to store energy. The larger the cap, the more energy you can store. Think about the large 2 farad caps you pu ton large stereo installs to prevent lights from dimming on bass drops. This is the same idea, the 10,00uF cap is storing a bit of energy between sparks so you always have full voltage at the coils for maximum spark. The voltage rating has to do with the amount of power you pump through it. You want a good fudge factor so the cap doesn't get too hot and explode. ~14v will be passing through it, if you got a cap rated at 12V, it's possible it will actually explode and fail. Not beause the coils operationg, but because the alternator was pushing more voltage through it than it could handle. |
Thanks for explaining Scott, I see what you mean. So as long as you get higher than the 14V then that should be fine. But the higher the better. So 35V will be fine.
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Originally Posted by ronniebiggs
(Post 740622)
Where do you get the 10,000 uF capacitors from? I cant locate them anywhere. Are they supposed to be 12V? I can find 18V 10,000 but thats about all.
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LOL. I started to read this thread then stopped somewhere round page 45. There are 8 suppliers on ebay from the uk. Most are 35V, some are 63V but described as high end audio caps.
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Originally Posted by Reverant
(Post 740635)
35V rating at a minimum.
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Surges happen all the time. You want double the voltage rating of what your systems runs, and the next standard voltage after 2*14=28 is 35.
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Originally Posted by EO2K
(Post 740588)
The COPS were a little tight to get in, but a whack with the top of my hand seated them just fine. They actually feel secure enough that I don't feel a need to build a hold down plate quite yet.
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http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squi...23619_fonz.jpg
...but in all seriousness, its a minor interference fit. "Whack" may be too strong of a word. Direct pressure is enough to seat them nice and snug, and they are not tight enough to warrant busting out a file to take care of right now. The more times I r&r these things the looser they get. I have no illusions that the situation is somewhat less than ideal. I will build some sort of hold-down apparatus in the near future, but it worked fine to get me to work and back today. |
I think I found why I cannot make my COPs works....
I have Diamond Toyota 90080-19025 COPs that look exactly like the Denso 90919-02244. They come from a Camry 1.8L 1998+ or Sienna 3.3L 2004+ ... ... these to cars are 24V cars...... So this might be the reason why they don't work ?! I've looked to my wiring many times and redid everything twice. Now, can someone tell me if I can make them work or not. Thank you |
90080-19015
90080-19023 are documented to work, 19025 doesn't seem like it would be any different. |
but does a COP from a 24V car will work in our 12V car?
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valve or volts?
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fuck I'm stupid, ... they are V6 cars, 24 valves, not 24 volts,
So then, I have no idea why they would'nt work on my car... Maybe the pin out is not the same as the other COP? I can't find anything |
i bet if you send one to Jason...
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2 Attachment(s)
is there a way to verify if the pinout is like this?
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1314996077 pin 1 : ground pin 2 : trigger pin 3 : tach pin 4 : 12V this is exactly how I wired it https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1314996077 I don't know whats might be wrong. When I put them on the car and I try to start the car, it does crank but no spark |
I found this:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/5180459-post66.html
Originally Posted by http://forums.pelicanparts.com/5180459-post66.html;
Another option ... and update on my progress ...
I am forging ahead with Toyota COPs with built-in ignitors. Toyota #90919-02246 for 3MZFE engines (Kluger in Aus, Highlander in US and other models as well). Picture back in post #45. I now have 14 units to play with after picking up 8 for $9 each on fleabay. I have managed to get some more info from Toyota on their wiring diagram ... wire #1 - earth (12v-) wire #2 - ignition (12v+) wire #3 - 5v ignition signal wire #4 - signal back to ECU to confirm firing (not necessary to use) Before I was aware that they only use a 5V signal, I tested them at 12V (post #97 in thread "using a coil pack ignition"). Luckily, it doesn't seem to have done them any harm. I will be using MS-II or new MS-3 as a controller. The COPs fit nicely into 964 valve covers as far as length is concerned. I need to source a slightly larger soft rubber seal for a gap-free fit. Planning to slice some a/c pipe insulation into rings about 1/4" thick for this. The lower coils also need to be fixed in place so I will make up a set of retainers that use rocker cover studs or the existing mounting points for the original spark plug lead clips. I'll probably do the same on the top coils just to be safe. |
Ok, I just individualy tested a single COP and it work with the pinout that everybody use.
I think I'll have to look at what's coming out of the megasquirt |
Ok, I've read this whole tread "I think". I have my COP's (part #19015), with pig tails, weather resistant plugs 4pin but look like little trailer plugs but they'll do, and can solder pretty well. I'm looking in wiring them 2by2. As in two COP's per wire harnes to each OEM coil connector and reverse the plugs on each harness to avoid plugging them in backwards on accident. I'm looking in the capacitors. 35v but running 4 caps with one on each pigtail as close to the COP as possible, the idea is thats where the voltage drop is. But do I need 10000uf for each or can I try ruffly 5000uf for each since it doesn't need to supply all 4 COP's. Bigger capacitors are well bigger and would like to hide the capacitor in the harness. Also who has blown up a 25v? thinking of downsizing the voltage to minimize cap size.
EDIT: This is basically what I'm looking at |
Just FYI if you are in Australia or New Zealand, Jaycar sell a suitable cap:
http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=RU6720 Looks like some cheap Chinese brand, but anyway. |
I was under the impression that the stock wire harness had a cap already.
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it does.
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Does that mean an additional cap is just silly?
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sorta.
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Originally Posted by saboteur
(Post 768225)
Does that mean an additional cap is just silly?
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Reverant probably.
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Pointless Mobile Phone Pictures
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Trailer connectors in da house!
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1315469932 Forgot that mother f'ing heat shrink. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1315469932 |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 768259)
Reverant probably.
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Originally Posted by Reverant
(Post 768873)
Yup. No issues.
The reason I'm asking is that I'm looking at building a loom that plugs into that front connector. I'm happy to pull an existing loom apart but if someone knows already it will save me a tonne of stuffing about. Cheers |
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I've attached a pic of the plug I was talking about. Do you know if the capacitor is between this plug and the two coil plugs at the rear of the engine?
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I'm actually a bit interested in this as well... seeing as I am building my whole harness from scratch, I'd like to pull the cap in the harness and use the OEM one.
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I don't know that, sorry.
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I know the 90-93 does, It resides just above the ignitor and goes between ground and power on the blue wire from ignitor to ignition coil.
I've seen nothing that shows the 95+ does. The coils get power directly from the behind the engine fuse opposed to before it, directly off the ignition switch as the 90-93. If I could acutally find the FSM in PDF format I'd buy them all, but I can only find these shitty Mitchell ones. But right now, I feel safe to say only the 90-93 has it. |
The 01-05 certainly does have it (it is bolted on the back of the cylinder head), it is coming through a 6-way connector on the front of the engine (2 grounds, 2 wires for the coolant temp sensor and 2 wires for the capacitor).
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I'll find it on my 95 harness today.
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I dont see it in the 99-00 FSM. It shows 3 wires on the CLT connector...there's an extra V/W wire that I can't quite figure out where it goes.
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Here's a retarded question. I have COP's installed and running on my car, and hacked my coil harness for the connector. Now I'd like to check my ignition timing, is there any way to do this? My timing light goes over the 1st spark plug wire, which now obviously is gone. Is my only route to borrow another harness and plug my old coils back in to do that?
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The ghetto way I've seen it done is cut a spark plug wire in half. Put the spark plug end on the spark plug. Stick the other end in the COP and secure. Car should run.. and you can just place the timing light as usual.
Although I've heard good timing lights can still pick up the signal in the wires. There might be a more sophisticated way. I've never actually done it, just seen it done with COPs. |
Interesting. You're saying to just stick the severed end of the plug into the COP? I still have the old coil and plug wires which could be cut I suppose. I tried putting it just around the 3-4 wires going to the COP but didn't get any signal. Probably not the best timing light, though.
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(Posting from my phone.)
Ughhh. put the mother fucking inductive pickup over the mother fucking wires...it works |
(Posting from my phone.)
Ughhh. put the mother fucking inductive pickup over the mother fucking wires... |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 772168)
(Posting from my phone.)
Ughhh. put the mother fucking inductive pickup over the mother fucking wires... |
:facepalm:
Must have missed my last post where I said I tried that. And it didn't mother fucking work. |
You don't need to cut the plug wire. Just take the #1 COP out of the hole, plug the end of a plug wire that hooked to the factory coil pack into the COP, and then install the plug wire on the spark plug as you normally would. Now you can put the pick up on the spark plug wire. I keep a plug wire in the tool box on the trailer just for this.
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Perfect. I'll do this today.
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Ive been working on my COP kit for my 94 and I have come to a point where I want to make it easy to go back and forth between COPs and stock(smog check contingency).
Ive come to the conclusion the female plug in the picture is the key to make it my harness plug and play connector wise, and not have to cut any of the car side harness wires. Ive been searching but, anyone know where I could buy one, or what car I scavenge one off at a Pick-a-part and re-pin it. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1321930201 |
On the '99, the key connector is right at the front of the engine, but it's similar to that one. Compatible connectors are all over mid-'90s Mazdas at the Pick Your Part. Just print out the photo you posted and take it with you. Grab a few in case there are differences you don't catch until you get home.
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You'd need to get a connector from another 94/95. later years have a 4 pin plug there instead of the 6 pin plug. Best bet would be to find a 94/95 at a junk yard and hack out part of the harness. The wires for the coils are just taped in and pretty much don't share any wires. so don't cut any wires, just tape/heatshrink
It probably wouldn't be worth getting anything from the dealer as they'll rape you price wise for a entirely new wiring harness if they can get it |
Ok, Thanks. I has just hoping I could pick up that connector at a site like Ballenger Motorsports where we order the toyota COP plugs.
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You can clamp an inductive timing light probe over the + or the - wire that goes to the COP.
Sometimes just opening the clamp, and laying it on top of the COP works. |
One thing you could do if you want to keep it plug n play in the future is replacing that plug on both the main harness and the coil part of the harness. So you'd buy two 6 or 8 pin female connectors and one male. of course this would require you to splice in the connectors initially but after that it'd be plug and play as long as you kept the original part if the harness that connects directly to the factory coils (the two 4-pin connectors). Not sure if i'm making sense a i'm typing on my phone
Originally Posted by tougerenner
(Post 798076)
Ok, Thanks. I has just hoping I could pick up that connector at a site like Ballenger Motorsports where we order the toyota COP plugs.
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So I've read this whole thread almost twice. Unless I missed something or my inexperience is obvious. As far as dwell goes 2.5ms at 12v I understand. However what do I do with the rest of the dwell curve in the Hydra ecm. At the moment it's at 5.4ms at 12v. So is as simple as easy math. 5.4ms-2.5=2.9 and then just lower all the other numbers in the curve by 2.9ms? IE; 12v-2.5ms / 11.7v-(5.76-2.9=X)2.86ms / 11.3-(6.2-2.9=X)3.3ms and so on? Also can't find a "cranking dwell" in the Hydra 2.5 software. I am a total noob to this so I'm sorry. Thanks for any help. Wires, capacitors, weatherpacks, and heatshrink are making a baby in the morning.
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Originally Posted by tougerenner
(Post 797951)
Ive been searching but, anyone know where I could buy one, or what car I scavenge one off at a Pick-a-part and re-pin it.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1321930201 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1322387163 http://www.newunitedracetech.com/sho...ducts/9565.jpg Here are sources for the pins: http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/ind...pfke95ub6s0sk6 http://www.easternbeaver.com/Main/El...SMDL/smdl.html |
Originally Posted by TorqueZombie
(Post 799543)
So I've read this whole thread almost twice. Unless I missed something or my inexperience is obvious. As far as dwell goes 2.5ms at 12v I understand. However what do I do with the rest of the dwell curve in the Hydra ecm. At the moment it's at 5.4ms at 12v. So is as simple as easy math. 5.4ms-2.5=2.9 and then just lower all the other numbers in the curve by 2.9ms? IE; 12v-2.5ms / 11.7v-(5.76-2.9=X)2.86ms / 11.3-(6.2-2.9=X)3.3ms and so on? Also can't find a "cranking dwell" in the Hydra 2.5 software. I am a total noob to this so I'm sorry. Thanks for any help. Wires, capacitors, weatherpacks, and heatshrink are making a baby in the morning.
The best was is to test. Lower the dwell until you get misfiring under full boost, then back it back up ~.2ms. |
Ok I have also read this thread and still have a few questions. first, for my 1995 OBD1, do I need the dwell reducer?
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I guess that sort of answers part of the next question. What if the dwell is too long/short, how would I know. Other than too short the car cuts out do to no spark and too long and the COPs melt. Is slightly to long better than running on the hairy edge of too short. I took your suggestion on ^ and just subtracted 1.8 from everything across the board to keep the same curve as before and it puts me in the middle of your suggestion at 2.72ms at 13.6v and kept that curve up and down the voltage range. 4.88ms at 11v - 3.6ms at 12v - 2.72ms at 13.6v - 2ms at 15v all interpolated in between. I guess for a base line it keeps my FM basemap shape at the lower COPs range.
Other question is why the lower dwell on the COPs? I know coil on plug is a different idea/design than the factory wires and coils, but it's the same amount of cylinders and same rpm range? and if they product more spark, then how do they do it with less juice? or am I thinking too much and just need to shut up, plug the numbers in, and go away? I dwell too much on the mechanics of everything sometimes. (See what I did there? Dwell.....haha) |
Got it all on the car. Won't start. With key on I get power (12v) at the COPs connectors and in the right polarity. It's a '99 so the tach wires are sealed off and tucked in the harness in case I want them later. How do I test to make sure I have a "trigger" connection? Pull the COP and put a plug in it, rest it agains the manifold, and turn over the car looking for spark? or unplug it at the COP and turn the key over with a multimeter hooked to it and ground? I know certain cars if you unplug the coil and try to turn over the motor it melts things. I believe it's just GM CDI cars though.
It may be the serious overfueling on cranking just keeping it from firing. My wife can smell fuel from the porch. It would eventually start on the stock coils though. |
Originally Posted by TorqueZombie
(Post 801399)
Got it all on the car. Won't start. With key on I get power (12v) at the COPs connectors and in the right polarity. It's a '99 so the tach wires are sealed off and tucked in the harness in case I want them later. How do I test to make sure I have a "trigger" connection? Pull the COP and put a plug in it, rest it agains the manifold, and turn over the car looking for spark? or unplug it at the COP and turn the key over with a multimeter hooked to it and ground? I know certain cars if you unplug the coil and try to turn over the motor it melts things. I believe it's just GM CDI cars though.
It may be the serious overfueling on cranking just keeping it from firing. My wife can smell fuel from the porch. It would eventually start on the stock coils though. |
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I have a 2000 and to test, I stuck an extra plug in each one of the COPs and set them so they were grounded to the top of the valve cover. I had an 'assistant' crank the motor so I could watch the light show.
IIRC, you should have 12v on the power connector when in 'RUN' or 'CRANK' and the trigger is just a pulse. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure. Are you running stock ECU or some other management? My stock '00 ECU runs wasted spark from the factory, so two of the COPs fire at the same time. Double and triple check that you have the correct pairs going to the appropriate cylinders. Edit: Bah! Sorry Torque, didn't read back far enough. Can't help you on the FM ecu stuff, but the rest should still be OK. If worst comes to worst, you can always get a spark tester pretty cheap from any auto parts store. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1325007393 |
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