Any of you guys figure it out yet? Flippy? Tim? Let's here the success stories start pouring in. =)

i just got my coils today in the mail, and i leave for ukraine on wednesday for some training, i'll see if i can get it done by then.

Does anyone know if Suzuki GSX-R coils would work? Those are going for cheap on Ebay! ?

should work you just have to figure out the signals they like.

Well, I'm interested in this and I'm gonna head out to my local junkyard here in a minute, but could someone explain how these would get wired into a STOCK 1.6 ecu?

I've read this whole thread about twice now, but I'm not a whiz at engine electronics so I still don't really understand where/what I'm cutting/splicing into. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

-Sean

I'm fairly sure the sport bike coils don't have an integrated igniter. You could still trigger a set of VB921s mounted in a project box and use the vb921 outputs to trigger the coils. Basically make you own external igniter box.

Sounds interesting! I'm a noob when it comes to igniters. What exactly is a VB921s? thanks

Nick

If you don't have a basic understanding of how an ignition system works or how coils are fired and understand the four stroke internal combustion engine and it's general workings not to mention a good understanding of electricity then you probably shouldn't try.

The Mazda ignition wiring, at the coil, consists of two coils each firing 2 cylinders each. There are 2 connectors at each coil. It has been explained what the wires are for and what there colors mean. I've explained there are two triggers (the wire that contains the pulse from the ecu that tells the coil's internal ignitor to fire the coil) and those triggers fire two cylinders together. Also you'll find 12v-power, Ground, and another wire that is the tach output from the coil to the tach. The ignition system's firing order is 1&4(coil 1)-2&3(coil 2). Not 1-3-4-2. This is called wasted spark because one of the sparkplugs is being fired on the top of the exhaust stroke and doesn't ignite anything. That's why it's called "wasted" because it doesn't fire on a power stroke. The cop coils will have to be connected to do the same. I don't have time right now but I'll draw up a schematic soon.

it's not as complicated as it sounds lol

I understand how it all works but I don't know what a VB921s is....this setup would be BA I'm looking forward to getting things started.

I don't either. Some sort of ignitor I think.

To use the Toyota coils you will need nothing but the coils, wire snips, solder and an iron (recomended), heatshrink tubing, and electrical tape. The coils sort of hold themselfs in place but if you want to bolt them down you need some 1/2" round aluminum rod about 1/2" long and drill and tap it for a 6mm bolt. Then JB weld the threaded spacers you just made to the valve cover after cleaning it thoroughly. One of the coils will use a valve cover bolt hole but you'll need a spacer or a few washers and a longer bolt. It just happens to line up with it. I've been really busy lately but I did plan a write-up if I can get to it. If anyone else wants to snap a few pics of there progress I'm sure it would help.

Ok a VB921ZV is the component number. It's a TO-220 package coil driver. Internally it looks like an NPN transistor with built in drive and current limiting circuitry. Hmm... Handy little bugger. I wonder how well it would work for PWM motor control.

http://www.chipcatalog.com/Datasheet...EB5174903D.htm

Well I would have posted the PDF but the forum limit of 45k will not allow me to. Has anyone ever seen a PDF as small as 45k? Philip where are you? Can this be changed to 300k? ...any PDF longer then one sentence is bigger then 45k. We all know Adobe bloat.

doesn't the 1.6 already have an igniter built into the ecu?

I think the ignitor on the 1.6 is bolted to the firewall.

This is going to complicate things for the 1.6L. If the 1.6L coils do not have the drivers built in then I'll need the schematics for it. You can still wire it up but you'll have to intercept the trigger from the ecu before it gets to the 1.6L ignitor if it has one.

Yea, I think that may be where I'm getting stuck with your directions.

This is what I'm looking at for my coil pack(luckly I've just got a spare chillin)
http://www.ilostmymind.com/upload/1_6coil_pack.jpg

Note how the red wire connects to both.

i'm gonna assume the red is power the black is ground, and the white is the trigger

i thought the ingitor was in the ecu, cause you have to solder one in on MS if you wanted to squirt a 1.6, if it was bolted to the firewall, there would be no need to solder one in. right? but again i'm speaking out of my ass

flippy actualy no the coils should be constant 12v with switched ground source so the white and red are different grounds for each coil.

Following the wires it comes to this, which according to the wiring diagram for a 92 is the igniter.
Here you see the labels.
http://www.ilostmymind.com/upload/ig..._explained.jpg
And here is the back of the plug so you can see the wires.

OK, so I (Think I) get what wires the V+(Power), Tach, Ground, and 2 triggers are going to be wired to.
V+ to #8 Red
1&4 Trigger to #3 Blue
2&3 Trigger to #1 White
Tach to #4 Yellow-Blue
Ground to #6 Black

My question now is if I cut into these wires before the igniter is everything else gonna work.

I mean I don't know what the wires from the igniter to the ECU (#2, 5, 7) are for. The wiring diagram doesn't say, it just has where they plug into the ECU at.

This is something I may do many years from now when I don't have other things I want to do to the car :)

i just got back from the junkyard, pulled the connectors off an 04 tacoma, and went to radio shack to buy me a soldering iron and related goodies, heatshrink, wiring loom, etc

SUCESS! how does it look?

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...1183518522.jpg
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...1183518519.jpg
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...1183518515.jpg
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...1183518512.jpg

it was scary as all fuck cutting the connectors off the coil packs, and hoping it would all work in the end but it was a sucess

Awesum flippy. :bigtu: So I take it you grabbed the triggers (before the ignitor) and all is well? I don't know if the pulse AFTER the ignitor is a good idea. Tach functioning normally? How does your idle and wot feel now? Mine seemed "smoother" and seems to help the miliage. I'm still seeing 2-3mpg improvements.

Now look what I've started!! COP mods!!

I noticed your coils are a bit different then the ones I'm using. The connector and mounting tab are inline with center. My mounting tab is offset and the connector is angled upwards. Looks tight though! +10

I'm in Antioch Sean. Check your messages! I can help you if you need a hand.
-Jeff

well it's an 2000, so the my old ones had internal igniters, i didn't have to worry about tach input, i just left that wire hanging just in case i wanna use it in the future. i just finished it today, and i was on empty after doing it, so nothing to tell if i have better MPG yet, i used to have a small stutter at idle, and now thats gone, and it does seem smoother, and it feels to pull a little harder, but it could be me. i was freaked out after cutting the first pack, so i had half COP and half plug wires, and started it up, and it worked so i continued on until finish, i wanna go back in and tidy everything up a bit when i get the chance, more factory looking.

Do you think you would be seeing the same improvements if you were still running wasted spark, or do you figure you are making gains from running sequential?

I am going to be running MS on my 94 in a standalone installation, And I am overdue for changing out my plug wires anyways, so I figure cheap COP ignition wouldn't hurt.

Thanks for the writeup.

http://www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?t=22411

It has been done. Looks like I will be doing the same.

The first time I wired it up I was firing them wasted spark just like Flippy is doing now and even then I noticed it running smother. It could be a combination of eliminating the plug wires, stronger spark, and cleaner voltages from the other sensors. The major benifit for me running sequential is per-cylinder timing. I'll be able to tune each cylinder's ignition and fuel bassed on egt.

You are going to run 4 EGT sensors? Or just move one from runner to runner and cap whatever bungs are unused?

I will pick up a set of coils as soon as a deal comes up. <40 USD.

I have kept the budget real low on my build, no need to blow it now on coils.

Tough part will probably be finding connectors with pigtails, all the u-pull junkyards here have nothing as new as a 2000 yota.

If you need help finding those plugs let me know and I'll see what I can come up with. You can always try ebay and search for the engine harness from the car your getting the coils from. I'm on a budget too. Most of what I'm running I've scavenged from ebay or junkyards. I'm slowly prepairing the car for some big HP. Yes I will be using 4 egt probes.

Lazzer, what junkyards do you go to around here?

The only 2 I know of are the one on rt.41 and 173, and City Auto Parts off Washington, just past grand ave further down 41.

but yea, ebay seems to be lacking in any coils for anything less that $20 each :( right now. I guess I'll just have to keep looking...

There's another in Spring grove of 12 that's not to bad. Smaller yard though. Pick and pull is the one off 41 and there mostly older <'98 cars. Toms auto in Hainsville is another smaller yard locally. There's a big one off 176/14 area in Rockford. Sharp parts is still in business but there in Hebron now. There's another decent sized one in Zion and Jantz in Kenosha is pretty big too but there kinda ---- about things. There "overprofessional" for a junkyard aka high overhead=high cost.
Is $80 that bad for coils? A set of NGK wires is about $60 shiopped. Most of those ebay guys will take offers. Send them a message asking for there best deal on a set of 4 shipped to 60002. I'll keep an eye out for some if your going to try it.

lol, no $80 isn't bad. I'm just horribly broke :(

It gets tough trying to find a summer job halfway through the summer...

I think some of the Infinity v8s used them too. Like a q45. Maybe try that search. If you find one grab both banks of plugs and sell the extra set. It's a pretty common coil and there's maybe 3 versions of it that have the plug or mounting tab slightly different.

I did find a couple sets in older nissans/toyotas in the junk yards, but the nissan ones were too fat up top and they were asking $25 for each anyways...

So once again, out of my price range. And I'd rather buy some off a newer car for that much money.

I have been wondering about this for a while now. I have some COPs from a 5.4l Ford motor. I might look and see if those are compatible for this setup. But toyotas and nissans are plentiful here. So maybe sourcing a toyota setup might be pretty easy. I plan to wire my setup in to the harness before the ignitor which is mounted on the fenderwell. I also will tig weld brackets to my valve covers for a clean installation. I have a JRSC setup. So this should improve my hp numbers. I will post when I complete the install. Thanks to all for their thoughts and comments about this modification to the 1.6l. I appreciate all the help.:)

Make sure your COPs have internal ignitors.

any one figure out how to run this on a 1.6L.

Yes. just grab the triggers before they enter the stock ignitor. See the picture posted in this thread of the 1.6 ignitor pinout.

lol, well I'm not really sure my diagram helps much.

I was just thinking about it and if I were to cut where I was thinking of cutting, I'd then be severing ANY connection the plugs have to the ECU.

I mean if I cut the White wire(runs to 2 & 3) before the igniter, I'm cutting into the wire that LEAVES from the igniter box to the coils. The wire I want for the triggers would, using my diagram, be 2, 5, or 7 (BRN-YEL, BLK-WHT, or BRN). But the only way I'd be able to figure it out as of now would be trial and error. And that kinda stuff kinda scares me when working with car electronics.

EDIT: Sharky, please do keep us updated with any information on the COP setup for a 1.6, then we can make a nice How-To post!

Well since the DSM coils are so similar I, think i will hunt over on some of the old DSM board about cop. I mean come the igniter has Mitsubishi stamped on it. lol

Off to do more research...

well so far bad news. ever person running COP on a DSM are running them with an external ignition box, such as MSD DIS-2. I'll keep looking but most of the DSM guys are not switching over until they are running full standalone.

Now Busher racing makes a COP system for the DSM, but I don't know if they would be will to tell how its all wired up.

Hey just found this and figured some people would like to see these plates.

http://erichmoraga.com/Miata/

I have the power....... well not really but I have more knowledge and some really bad photos/diagrams...lol


Ok so here is what I have figured out in the last hour-ish

First the miata 1.6L shares the ignition system similar to the 91-94 DSM, not the 90. The 90 model has 4 pins connector on the coil and the 4 pin is for a tach out put. I am not sure if there is a difference in a 91-94 model vs the 95-99.

The system and step-up I found is for running wasted spark. It seems as if there is no way to run seq without a MSD DIS-2 or similar. Just do to the fact of how you have to wire it in a bridge system(correct me if I am wrong),

The power is sent to the 1st and 2nd coil then the grounds go to 3rd and 4th and loop back.

From what everything looks like, it seem the power it constant but the ground is where the switch is. It seem half backwards to have constant power to the coils and have the ecu turn the ground on and off based on what plugs need to fire.

This would be easy to test, but I don't have a tester. Test the red wire and see if it have constant power at idle. Then test the white or black wire and see the power level constant jumps up and down.

First bad diagram
http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/attach...9&d=1174512239

Second Bad diagram
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...lugdiagram.jpg

If anyone wants to give me the parts I am willing to use my daily driving miata as tester... lol

Hope this helps honeydesean

What parts? The Toyota COPs have ignitors built in them. They are not just coils. You dont need another ignitor. In the DSM picture that posted, The coils are wired in series. If there 12v coils that means there only getting 6v each.

For Toyota coils you ONLY need 12v, ground, and the two trigger outputs from the ecu before it goes to the Miata ignitor (1.6l). If you have the 1.8l the ignitors are built into the oem coils already. Then tie the tach leads together and connect to the Miata's tach lead. -done-

Dude... for the last time. I live in Antioch and it would help this entire thread if you could bring your car by and I could see the 1.6l ignition setup and make a "once and for all wiring diagram" to post here. All I have to work on is the 1.8L. Alot of you have 1.6L and it can be done just like the 1.8L but you ELIMINATE the Miata ignitor. That's right... cut that mo-fo out of the car and throw it in the trash. :bigtu:

Ugly...

Really ? i like it on mine !

http://www.total-gtr.co.uk/upload/im...OPfinished.JPG

Yea I was unable to figure out how to eliminate the ignitor, if you can figure that out that would be a god send.


honeydesean get your ass over to Lazzer for good of all of us or we're going to beat you like a red headed step-child with SPORKS!!!! :eek:

would these work??
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ford-...QQcmdZViewItem

And I need a set as well. my car has to be back on th road by the end of july and i need coils!! lmk

No. Those don't have ignitors in them. What coils do you need? If you just need something to get you back on the road I have some 1.8L coils. What year is your car?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Firin...spagenameZWDVW
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2002-...spagenameZWD1V <---set of 4 for $50

And... that set of 4 is mine!

Thanks again Jeff!

Sweet so you finally got it working.

Now time to start gathering the parts

He hasn't actually installed the set on his car yet. All we did today was verify the ECU would trigger a Toyota coil with built in ignitor and verify the pinout/functions of the 1.6L wiring harness at the oem ignitor. I don't doubt it will work. If you want to wait a week or so Sean should have his coils by then. If any problems come up I'm sure I'll hear about it. Lets hope not. :x:

That is fine, it will take me a week before I can hit a pull-a-part and hunt down coils

Cool, nice snag on the prius coils. LMK if you run across some more at that price.

I am watching your progress, and if successful, will emulate it. Please update as appropriate.

Lazzer, are you sure that you need to connect the tach out of all 4 cops? I would have thought that you need just one output from each PAIR of cops (one paired output to black/white & the other to yellow/blue) since it's wasted spark...