22PSI, 260WHP/246WTQ, WTF?
#1
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22PSI, 260WHP/246WTQ, WTF?
I'm finally breaking down and creating a thread because I feel I need some outside help. I believe I've exhausted every option I can think of.
Long story short, I've using a home built EVO3 16G stuffed into a MSM turbine housing that I machined myself with a built motor, and I think it's down on power. Very similar to BNR, but more DIY.
Here's the link to the turbo fabrication.
How to build your own "bolt on" 16G
Never posted a thread about it here because it included MSM "fail parts"
Specs I believe are mostly in sig.
Forged rods / 8.8 Wisecos
"Cleaned up" head, runners, short side, bowl, etc
ARP yada yada
All 2.25 charge pipes/ebay intercooler
ARTech 3" from turbine to tip
FM Level 2 clutch
Rev MS2e w/ FIC650s
Roughly 165psi compression across all cylinders
Stock MSM ignition no blowout at all
BK7REs gapped to .35
Water injection 100psi pump, 220ml/min triggers @ 15psi
91 Octane fuel
With the setup, I'm only getting about 260whp/246wtq via Virtual Dyno. I'm pretty sure this is fairly accurate. Last year I did around 200whp/200wtq @ 15psi on Virtual Dyno and was verified with almost identical numbers from a DynoJet.
Now the car hauls ***, but I still feel like something isn't right. Numbers aside; the car has relatively new RS3s on 15x8 6ULs. If the tires are say warmer than 70f, in a straight line, I can not break them loose during WOT acceleration at all, first, second, etc. When I shift hard into second, yes it'll break'em loose for a second or two, but will catch. If the tires are cold, I can break them loose in first for sure, and sometimes second WOT pull.
So that gives you an idea of some numbers and real life traction scenarios for the given power made.
Here are some pictures of a 3rd gear pull. 4th gear pulls are hard to acquire in San Diego. I've lost my license before and it was worse than the fines.
22psi by 5000 in 3rd. Will do it by about 4500 in 4th gear.
Virtyal Dyno
MegaLog
Spark Map
Fuel VE Table
I think my lost power has to do with timing. But I've got a set of detcans bolted to passenger upper motor mount bolt and any more than this it starts knocking, usually around 4200 and 6200. I've checked my base timing and cam timing a few times and both check out ok. And on top of this, the water injection didn't seem to help at all. Maybe a little, but I expected a lot more.
I've seen at least 3 different good spark maps, brain, hustler and pdextra who all run show timing in high boost should be between, well a lot higher than mine(+5deg or more). And from what I've seen, though it'll knock, my engine does still respond well to more timing. So it shows improvement but knocks.
One more question. I've heard mention that our engines will stop producing higher numbers with timing before knock onset. Is that true also in high boost situations. IE will our engines stop producing more hp/tq with more timing @ 20psi before knock ever shows itself? Because it seems like the opposite is happening with me.
Opinions please.
Long story short, I've using a home built EVO3 16G stuffed into a MSM turbine housing that I machined myself with a built motor, and I think it's down on power. Very similar to BNR, but more DIY.
Here's the link to the turbo fabrication.
How to build your own "bolt on" 16G
Never posted a thread about it here because it included MSM "fail parts"
Specs I believe are mostly in sig.
Forged rods / 8.8 Wisecos
"Cleaned up" head, runners, short side, bowl, etc
ARP yada yada
All 2.25 charge pipes/ebay intercooler
ARTech 3" from turbine to tip
FM Level 2 clutch
Rev MS2e w/ FIC650s
Roughly 165psi compression across all cylinders
Stock MSM ignition no blowout at all
BK7REs gapped to .35
Water injection 100psi pump, 220ml/min triggers @ 15psi
91 Octane fuel
With the setup, I'm only getting about 260whp/246wtq via Virtual Dyno. I'm pretty sure this is fairly accurate. Last year I did around 200whp/200wtq @ 15psi on Virtual Dyno and was verified with almost identical numbers from a DynoJet.
Now the car hauls ***, but I still feel like something isn't right. Numbers aside; the car has relatively new RS3s on 15x8 6ULs. If the tires are say warmer than 70f, in a straight line, I can not break them loose during WOT acceleration at all, first, second, etc. When I shift hard into second, yes it'll break'em loose for a second or two, but will catch. If the tires are cold, I can break them loose in first for sure, and sometimes second WOT pull.
So that gives you an idea of some numbers and real life traction scenarios for the given power made.
Here are some pictures of a 3rd gear pull. 4th gear pulls are hard to acquire in San Diego. I've lost my license before and it was worse than the fines.
22psi by 5000 in 3rd. Will do it by about 4500 in 4th gear.
Virtyal Dyno
MegaLog
Spark Map
Fuel VE Table
I think my lost power has to do with timing. But I've got a set of detcans bolted to passenger upper motor mount bolt and any more than this it starts knocking, usually around 4200 and 6200. I've checked my base timing and cam timing a few times and both check out ok. And on top of this, the water injection didn't seem to help at all. Maybe a little, but I expected a lot more.
I've seen at least 3 different good spark maps, brain, hustler and pdextra who all run show timing in high boost should be between, well a lot higher than mine(+5deg or more). And from what I've seen, though it'll knock, my engine does still respond well to more timing. So it shows improvement but knocks.
One more question. I've heard mention that our engines will stop producing higher numbers with timing before knock onset. Is that true also in high boost situations. IE will our engines stop producing more hp/tq with more timing @ 20psi before knock ever shows itself? Because it seems like the opposite is happening with me.
Opinions please.
Last edited by slmhofy; 04-05-2014 at 10:16 PM.
#3
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Currently injecting 95% distilled water, maybe 5% rubbing alcohol. Shurflow 100psi internal bypass pump with an M4 McMaster Carr full cone nozzle ~ 220ml/min. And injecting about 6" before throttle body, right after the AIT sensor.
Something I started thinking about while piecing the thread together earlier today was, maybe I'm getting some blowby or oil in the engine. I noticed a little oil in the intake when I swapped out the injectors a couple months ago for smog, but it wasn't any amount that caught my attention. The engine is currently utilizing the stock MSM catch can system.
#4
My understanding is that water only cools the charge, and to increase the effective octane you need methanol. This would be why you don't see a change in your knock threshold.
Also, California gas is very low octane compared to the rest of the country. I find that I run much lower timing than almost all of the maps posted here.
Also, California gas is very low octane compared to the rest of the country. I find that I run much lower timing than almost all of the maps posted here.
#7
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22psi on a 21psi map sensor is never a good idea. Or have you upgraded to a 29/44psi sensor?
Aside from that, the map you are running is for a low boost, standard compression engine.
You are not going to go past 260-270whp on 10* timing. Since you now have a low compression engine and WI, bump up the timing. Just make sure you listen for knock.
Aside from that, the map you are running is for a low boost, standard compression engine.
You are not going to go past 260-270whp on 10* timing. Since you now have a low compression engine and WI, bump up the timing. Just make sure you listen for knock.
#9
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22psi on a 21psi map sensor is never a good idea. Or have you upgraded to a 29/44psi sensor?
Aside from that, the map you are running is for a low boost, standard compression engine.
You are not going to go past 260-270whp on 10* timing. Since you now have a low compression engine and WI, bump up the timing. Just make sure you listen for knock.
Aside from that, the map you are running is for a low boost, standard compression engine.
You are not going to go past 260-270whp on 10* timing. Since you now have a low compression engine and WI, bump up the timing. Just make sure you listen for knock.
these.
#10
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22psi on a 21psi map sensor is never a good idea. Or have you upgraded to a 29/44psi sensor?
Aside from that, the map you are running is for a low boost, standard compression engine.
You are not going to go past 260-270whp on 10* timing. Since you now have a low compression engine and WI, bump up the timing. Just make sure you listen for knock.
Aside from that, the map you are running is for a low boost, standard compression engine.
You are not going to go past 260-270whp on 10* timing. Since you now have a low compression engine and WI, bump up the timing. Just make sure you listen for knock.
And I know in that log I posted the picture of, that it was running a little lean through the pull and has since been fattened up to ~11.5. That just happened to be the one I recorded. It looks like the turbo is doing well at this boost, 93deg MAT.
#11
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And the MSM turbine is actually nicer than the stock Mitsubishi housing, larger and smoother. The exhaust manifold itself isn't, but I'm not sold yet that it's a large restriction yet. I'll probably end up tapping it and see what kind of back pressure there really is.
#14
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You have that completely *** backwards
Almost everybody running water/meth injection would be better off with just water (with a touch of alcohol added to kill algae). The meth is evolutionary baggage from the days of carbs and turbos and no intercoolers.
#16
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Nope nope nope
You have that completely *** backwards
Almost everybody running water/meth injection would be better off with just water (with a touch of alcohol added to kill algae). The meth is evolutionary baggage from the days of carbs and turbos and no intercoolers.
You have that completely *** backwards
Almost everybody running water/meth injection would be better off with just water (with a touch of alcohol added to kill algae). The meth is evolutionary baggage from the days of carbs and turbos and no intercoolers.
#18
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And yes, I think I hear det any time I add more timing than what I've got in my spark map now in regards to the top 2 rows. The rest of the map runs great.
#19
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I think if I was able to get the timing up where it "should" be (15-18 w/water), I'd be over 300 by now. Aka my long term goal.