Tonicalibra

Hey guys

At first I am from germany and my english isn't the best. So I apologize in advance if I do not write everything correctly.

I'm not owning an nice miata like the most of you, I am just driving mazda 323 models with bp engine - but there are no big differences and here I can find the most know how about boosting a bp engine. Thats why I am asking here.

I've got a 1995 Mazda 323-S BA with BP-Engine (114hp) since a few years. Its my daily driver and I want to install a VJ23 Turbocharger from the prevoius modell 1991 323-BG GTR (185hp) on it. Here is a pic of the car:



Also I only want to have a low boost build - if this results in something between 160-190bhp this would be perfect for me.
What did you do with your ECU when boosting your BP? Piggypack? Standalone? GTR ECU? Just because it's my daily driver I want to do this with as little effort as possible.

- STANDALONE
A standalone ECU is to much effort until de engine runs properly and fine. I'm using a Megasquirt MS2E PNP on my white 323, thats not the solution for my daily drive 323 protege I am searching for. I am searching for an solution which is near at "install and go".

- GTR ECU
The original 1991 GTR ECU would not work without changing a lot of in the car. The GTR ECU is from the BG-series which will not match the harness from my BA-series car. I have to change the complete engine wiring harness with all engine-components (alternator, air flow meter, TPS, IAC, ..) and there will arise some problems when connecting the BG-series engine wiring harness to the BA-series car wiring harness. Its possible, but not in relation due to the effort I want to invest.

- PIGGYPACK
The easiest way is to use the Piggypack eManage Ultimate which I used in my white 323 a few years before. Its not hard to install and I just had to adjust the fuel map and just had to modify the ignition table with decreasing ignition angle while boost is increasing. Thats it.
When the engine is increasing boost by 0,1bar, then I have to retard ignition timing by 1 degree. At 0,2bar then I have to retard ignition timing by 2 degree. And so on. So its called as a rule of thumb. Sounds easy, but:
There is my problem:
This ONLY works, if the ignition timing stays continuously at the same value. But what when the ignition angle from the OEM ECU is rising up with increasing RPMs? Then this would not work and I would blow my engine after a while of driving because of knocking. Or I am making the ignition timing too soft because of too much ignition retard and I got EGTs like hell. So I only can estimate the correct ignition timing by controlling the EGTs. Thats not accurate enough, I think. But maybee it works, 'coz of the low boost which I want to use (the VJ23 makes 0,7bar boost I think, I dont want to chance there anything on this system).

How did you solved this? Do you get problems while just retarding the ignition by 1 degree when boost is increasing 0,1bar independently of which ignition timing the oem ECU is making?


Thanks a lot, Toni

Ryan_G

iTrader: (8)

Why is a standalone not a good option? What specific problem do you have with the standalone that would cause issues in a daily? I use to daily drive my miata with an MS2e and I never had issues from the tune.

Girz0r

iTrader: (1)

Euro emissions would be my first guess.

Could always go with a fm voodoo box as a last resort.

Ryan_G

iTrader: (8)

I would have originally guessed emissions but he mentions that he is running one on another car and that there were issues with the actual tune. He wants something more "install and go". This leads me to believe it was either a wiring issue or a poor base map because I literally started the car up with my base map from reverant, fine tuned fuel a bit, and the car drove completely fine for daily purposes. Needed to fine tune some idle up, cold start, and other small parameters but nothing that would have made DD'ing the car a pain in the ***.

Tonicalibra

Thanks a lot for your replies
Well - I see that there are further informations needed.

I am using a MS2 PNP in my white mazda 323 (1,9L n/a 160hp high compression). For this cars doesn't exists any usefull basemaps, you have to tune it from scratch. And that could be a problem when you drive a car who nearly nobody in the world is tuning with an MS2, nobody can help you and you get such a lot problems which you never get if you can use a basemap. Par example the frequenzy of the idle vale or the air flow meter which you have to find out in long series of experiments and so on and so on. But there is a big problem with the ignition coil when using a MS2 in a 323-BA which forced me to not complete all these series of experiments. Its difficult to explain in english, but I will try it:

The OEM ECU sends an amplified signal to the ignition coil which is placed in the ignition distributor (the mx5 dont use distributor) because of missing IGBT ignition driver (MOSFET) inside of the ignition coil. That works good so far. But the MS2 PNP doenst sends out an amplified signal to the ignition coil because the MS2 assumes there will came an IGBT ignition driver in front of the ignition coil like in any other cars too. This means the incoming signal from the MS2 to the ignition coil is too low, the ignition coil overheates and dies a long death. You are getting ignition missfires in high RPM sections which are getting worse and worse. Thats why I changed to COPs. With these COPs there are no missfires, but I got a huge knocking problem and no one in germany (not either megasquirt forum germany) can find the fault. Meanwhile I am thinking that the MS2 PNP had an intern failure which I cant make out (bought these MS2 completed from a tuner here).
I already used maps from other MX5 NA BP drivers with MS2 and the same COPs and its just not working. I'm freaking out with this. Thats why I want to use the OEM ECU again just to test if the knocking problem is still there or not. Then I can see clearly if the problem is wether the MS2 or an problem with the engine itself (jumped timing belt or such things). But I can only test it, if it is warmer here. Current its winter at -5° Celsius.

And as long as I dont know the failure there, I am not willing to place a MS2 PNP into my daily driver. Thats the primary reason why no MS2. The secondary reason as you already recognized is the emission. It would takes a long time to tune the MS2 proper enough so that I will pass the emission test. In my white 323 this doesnt matter, the half car is not legal and when the police catches me then its my own problem. With the blue 323 is my girlfriend driving too, and I dont want her to have trouble with the police because of this.

With the fm voodoo box I only can modify the fuel management. And what about the ignition timing retard? Dont the engine dies after a few times WOT because of knocking?

huesmann

iTrader: (1)

What about something like AEM FIC-6?

Girz0r

iTrader: (1)

Skimmed through your paragraph. But it sounds like you want to avoid going through the same issues you had with the 323. The megasquirt for the mx-5 will come with a basemap that will at least allow you to start the car and move around without worrying about timing.

You would still need to setup idle, and setup the megasquirt to autotune for fuel for when you drive. If you ever need to, just swap the oem ecu back in. This way you won't be stuck on the road.

afm

iTrader: (3)

What COPs did you have issues with? Incorrect base timing or bad dwell settings could easily cause knock and would be easy to fix.

Tonicalibra

Thats the way you can go with your MX5, because you got a basemap. But there are no basemaps for my 323 protege which is actually testet by a lot of users. I only can use your BP MX5 basemap and adjust a lot of things so that these map would work with my 323. But it doesnt works.

I have a friend with a MX5 BP n/a with the same VAG COPs like mine, we did the same COP conversion at the same time. For his COP conversion there is an instruction manual on the internet, I had to work it out myself. His car is driving fine how expected. Now I easily can take his Setup and just adjust a few very minor things - because with the COP-Ignition the 323 BP is pretty the same like the MX5 BP as far as the ECU is concerned. But the car won't run with his setup. It stalls and has spark retards and so on - It doesnt work, I cant tell you why. With my own setup it is "only knocking" above ~50% TPS.

Since I doesnt found out the failure with th MS2 on my white 323, I am not installing an MS2 into my blue 323.


@huesman The AEM FIC-6 Controller is pretty the same thing like the Greddy eManage Ultimate. There I got the same problems with unknown ignition timing.

Doesnt here anybody is using a piggypack on this turbo'ed BP/B6 who can tell me, if it works for long time or if he get problems after a while?

Bronson M

iTrader: (1)

This question is like asking if anyone here uses a hammer and does it work well......... I've seen works of automotive art created with a hammer, I on the other hand destroy things with one.

Very few people here use a piggyback, it's just a huge band-aid that normally results in problems like you are experiencing. With megasquirt you literally have full control, there is nothing holding you back from making it work better than OEM other than your own skills. My suggestion to you is to start researching here on why your other car doesn't run right with megasquirt, once you become competent in tuning, not having a basemap becomes a minor inconvenience, really to tune a car right you should pretty much touch all the parameters of the basetune anyway.

Tonicalibra

I think you didnt understand me right.
Maybe my poor english let the guess arise that I am new in this sector of tuning. I am doing these things (ECU tuning) since 6 years now. I am not a stupid beginner. This is not supposed to be an attack, for sure, but your posting seems to me that you are maybe thinking this. I just wanted to correct this.

Its a lot of work to tune your MS2 such proper that you pass the emissions test here in germany. If you use piggypack, all this time for tune you have not to invest, because its not neccessary. On this view the piggypack is the better solution than a standalone because its such a lot less effort.

I was using the Greddy eManage Ultimate for full 3 years (then it was stolen, seems that someone thought it was a cool amplifier...). It was quiet hard to install (2010), because no one was installing this piggypack into a 323 BA-series before and there were a lot of issues in the official Greddy Emanage Ultimate Installations Manual - there were cable named wrong and jumper settings incorrectly labeled. Thats why it tooks a week (after work) until I got the vehicle running. Definitely it was my first ECU re-wiring and ECU tuning, and thats why some things were problems for me, which now 6 years later would not be a problem of course.
Since then I NEVER had issues due to the piggypack, it was all working very fine. In my opinion all failures while using piggypack are based on bad wiring or bad tuning.

I only bought these MS2 because my EMU was stolen AND in the future Im going to boost the white 323 with Rotrex C30-94 and I KNOW that you cant tune the C30-94 with the EMU. There are several idle issues due to too much air throughput - the C30-74 works but the C30-94 not because its making to much air throughput at idle which the OEM air flow meter cant handle. And a MAF-Delete ist too unclean and pluck for me.

Its winter, and I cant drive my white 323 so I cant further research for the issue. When I got my white 323 running properly, then it might be worth considering to install a MS2 into my blue 323, too. But I think that I get intalled the turbo earlier then finding out the issue on the MS2, thats why I asked for piggypack-solution because I know that the EMU works fine, even if its more expensive than MS2.

And thats why I am asking if anybody runs a piggypack on his boostet BP/B6 for a long time.
Because if it works and my concerns due to the ignition timing are not true, then I will install a EMU and have no reasons why installing a MS2.

Greetings.

Bronson M

iTrader: (1)

All I'm saying is there are quite a few folks here who have successfully used COP setups and there is a wealth of knowledge available for you read here to help you rectify the problem, it's not a megasquirt problem. It'll be less work, and a better car with the megasquirt so that's why you don't see very many people posting about piggybacks here.

Maybe there is some one here who can answer your specific question.

Ryan_G

iTrader: (8)

I think you're missing the part where the wiring and fuses are different and he has to tune for specific emissions testing. This isn't as simple as just putting an MSPNP in a miata even though it is the same engine. There are a lot of small problems to work around. I can definitely see why he would want to run a piggyback.

OP - You have another option to wire up the MS to run in parallel so that the stock ECU can still handle all of the normal emissions stuff. You sound like you have the skill set to do this if you want to.

Tonicalibra

Yeah, Ryan got it, thanks mate. Tuning a miata, mx-3 or 323 BG (89-94) is such more easier than tuning a 323 BA (94-98) - because miata, mx-3 and BG uses the same eletrical technology. COP conversions for miata are so much different from "COPing" a 323 BA, you cant compare that. Either there are a lot of how-to's for miata, but no one did it with a 323 BA before. There are so many problems you have to solve which you never get if you drive a miata.
How I already said: When I get time to research my white 323 / MS2 then I will start with going back to oem ECU just to be sure if the problem is on the engine side oder on the MS2 side. But when I do this, then I cant drive my blue 323 because the ignition cable and ignition distributor from the white 323 are actual working in my blue 323. So I have to disassemble my blue 323 and I can only do it when I dont need it. In the winter I need my blue 323 every day 'coz I cant drive my white 323 (just for summer). Thats why it could take time up to march/april until I can start to work in my white 323 again.

Well, I never thought about using a MS2 in this way. Thats just as simple as brilliant. I will inform myself further in this way of solution. Thanks!

Bronson M

iTrader: (1)

I honestly didn't think somthing as simple as the wiring and fuses being different would be considered a roadblock. Guess I should back up and explain, you can megasquirt your lawn mower.... Just have to get back to the basics of adding the sensors you're missing. In OP's case with a distributor motor he would need a crank trigger wheel and pickup to get accurate crank timing for the ms, I bet he was trying to use whatever internal triggers that are in the dissy which is probably attributing to his issues.

On the emissions he stated it would take a long time to tune it to pass which I read as him having to deal only with a sniffer test, if that's the case it's actually not near hard as you would think. I used to tune OEM ecm's for GM stuff from the 80's and could get lumpy cams to pass in PA. Devil is in the details here and we don't have them.

I did miss where he has other concerns about his girlfriend getting cought with a modified car, not sure how a piggy back would be viewed any different than a standalone, Joe blow emissions cop won't know the difference.

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Tonicalibra

Since I am using COPs in my white 323, I am using a mx5 cam angle sensor instead of the oem distributor. There I get crank timings accurate enough for the MS, 'coz you can see so many mx5 drivers with the oem crank angle sensor using a MS2 - there can't be the problem. Als I already said, I'm using a mechanical setup (n/a BP, VAG COPs, MX5 CAS, ...) on my BP engine with which so many other mx5 driver has no problems with. So you cant tell me that there you suspect my problem. As you already said: "Devil is in the details here and we don't have them." - thats right. But this isnt the thread to find out that issue.

Of course you are right when you say that the police officer cant find the difference between if there is a piggypack or standalone installed. The difference is in HOW MUCH effort I have to invest until the officer does not suspect that the car is not original. Piggypack: Nothing. Standalone: Huge effort (in comparison due to piggypack).
The difference between a piggypack and a standalone is the huge effort to tune it until it can pass a german emission test (fuel map from scratch, ignition map from scratch, closed loop idle, ...). With the piggypack you had to do NOTHING to pass it, with a standalone you have a lot of things to do. Thats the big difference between piggypack and standalone, of course when I say that the car is just my daily and I am searching for an solution which takes as little as possible effort to tune it.

This thread is not about how to fix the issues due to my white 323 even since you have read that I cant research the problem in the future months - this thread is about expieriences about using a piggypack while turbocharging a n/a BP/B6. The idea with a MS2 using as a piggypack sounds very great - I will go after that I think.

MikeTheMiata

I like using The MegaSquirt PNP2