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In this topic I want to share the journey of building a 1.8L with an electric turbo.
Couple of weeks ago I get in contact with the electric turbo concept of TQAmp from the Netherlands. I think it is an interessting way to power natural asperated cars and I want to try it, learn from it and have fun with it. Since I didn't tune with any stand alone ECU yet, I started reading a lot in this forum and today is the time to start asking for more help and recommandations.
What I figured so far. I'll need:
1. "Standalone ECU and wideband. MS3 of some sort with an Innovate MXT-L or AEM UEGO. Install this on the stock motor and learn how to tune".
- I own a 2001 NB which had a 1.6 and was swapped to a 1.8. There is no special ECU installed and I think they kept as much 1.6 as possible. What and where do I have to check to know what I have to change?
1.8 status 15.04.2020
2. I will need larger injectors. "You want to get get EV14 injectors. I suggest FlowForce injectors as they are the best bang for the buck EV14's. Anything also from Injector Dynamics is good".
Beside the injectors, are there any other internal parts I have to consider? Fuelpipe, spark plugs, coils, etc.?
3. "Stronger clutch. SuperMiata, FM, ACT are the only brands you want to be looking at."
Is there anything speaking against an Exedy Stage 2 Sport clutch? (I had that in my previous NB RS 1.8 in combination with a short shifter and 6 speed, I liked it).
4. About the car:
2001 NB, 1.8 BP4W + 1.8VVT intake, 1.6 flywheel, IL motorsport engine mounts, IL motorsport ignition cables (not in picture) 5 speed manual, BC BR suspension, front slotted discs + EBC yellowstuff + stock calibers, rear stock discs + pads + calibers, goodridge steel brake lines all around, 15x8 Et20 with 205/55R15 daily, 15x7.5 ET26 195/55R15 Toyo R888/Yoko 08RS/etc. for the track, Sparco Sprints, Fujitsubo manifold, cobalt exhaust, Mishimoto radiator, JASS reinforced framerails, steeringwheel, 1 million small things, I'm not sure about the diff :(
Engine leaks a bit at the front and rear. I think this comes from the crankshaft, maybe the gaskets/seals are not good or well replaced. If it stays how it is now, I would rather keep it, buy another 1.8, rebuild that one and swap then.
Next mods: Useful Rollbar, 6 point belt (have a HANS, fireprove FIA suit, shoes, gloves, etc. now), fire extinguisher, exhaust cutout just to try it, some more optical mods.
What other hardware mods to look for to make this stand the turbo?
5. About the usage:
I drive this car in Cyprus where I'm usually plan to be from March till June and from September till December. We have nice mountain roads and beautiful, curvy roads all over the island. Speedlimit keeps you around 100 km/h on the public roads.
At the weekends it goes to Achna Speedway, where I learn a lot every time I'm there. It's a curvy 2.4km long track with one long straight where a stock 1.8 reaches ~125-135km/h. It's more about the momentum and the curves. My stock car can give me 1-2 more seconds, which I think I will reach in 2020. Building and driving the TQAmp mod is aimed for 2021, so it would be in use there and since torque is more needed than horse power, I think this mod fits well.
6. Loved scenario:
I can run the car with the stock power and no higher forces on the components and with the press of a button the electric turbo gives "instand" boost. All the ECU adjustments which are needed to keep it healthy will happen simultaniously with this.
(If I will ever drive without the turbo is another story...). Sounds possible?
An electric turbo would not make it to my top ten list, but it is an interesting endeavor nonetheless.
(Says the guy who used to have a supercharger, and now has two turbos under the hood...)
Someone should make an electric AMR500 and run that on a miata. The RPMs make much more sense. These stupid *** direct drive electric turbos probably never even show up on the compressor map on whatever they were stolen off of. Do any turbo compressor maps even start at less than 50KRPM? Do any of these electric runners ever crack 50K? I highly doubt it.
I doubt you need a clutch, injectors, or really anything more than a ECU. That "turbo" is going to do jack squat at higher RPMs, so no horsepower for you.
Someone should make an electric AMR500 and run that on a miata. The RPMs make much more sense. These stupid *** direct drive electric turbos probably never even show up on the compressor map on whatever they were stolen off of. Do any turbo compressor maps even start at less than 50KRPM? Do any of these electric runners ever crack 50K? I highly doubt it.
I doubt you need a clutch, injectors, or really anything more than a ECU. That "turbo" is going to do jack squat at higher RPMs, so no horsepower for you.
Thanks for your input about the other parts I may not need. I think I will start without the bigger injectors and see, of the stock ones are to small. Clutch will be changed when it's done
The idea of the torque amp is to have more torque, not pure horsepower. If you hunt for horsepower, a turbo is the better way. Original it was setup to power normal turbos in the lower RPMs, so a combination is the most effective use.
I want to see how it is without a normal turbo, and if I get boored in a while, I can still add a normal turbo and use the TQAmp to power this up. It makes 0.4 bar /5.8 PSI.
Regarding RPMs: The TQAmp electric engine goes up to a 100k and in combination with this unit is limited to ~85-90k. I think all the numbers and information you need to programm whatever are available, because the TQAmp box is monitoring everything.
If you are good with german language, you can check this video for detailed information:
~min 25 he mention that a 1.6 engine with 100hp goes to around 140hp (with good maps of course). The bigger the engine, the lower it goes, because you need more air and that costs more power...
EBC yellowstuff pads are meant for the track, NOT DD - I wouldn't trust them for DD where you may need to brake quickly without them warmed up and they'll be chewing up your rotors faster too than street pads.
EBC Greenstuff pads are meant for DD for N/A NA/NBs, Redstuff for DD turbo cars or those with more power.
I'd like to see some back-of-the envelope calculations of where the energy comes from, is stored, and is used. Preferably from the manufacturer, because my mental math isn't working out.
The turbine side of an exhaust driven turbo is taking energy from the exhaust and using it to drive the compressor. Simple equation.
This thing takes energy from the alternator (which is driven by the engine), stores it in a battery pack, and uses it to drive a compressor. In my math, this is just removing energy from the engine some percentage of the time, storing it (and thus losing efficiency) and then re-applying it at a later point. That's ... not appealing to me.
EBC yellowstuff pads are meant for the track, NOT DD - I wouldn't trust them for DD where you may need to brake quickly without them warmed up and they'll be chewing up your rotors faster too than street pads.
EBC Greenstuff pads are meant for DD for N/A NA/NBs, Redstuff for DD turbo cars or those with more power.
Thanks for pointing this out. I think if I would take the car to daily traffic for normal drives, I would not use them. But this is not the only car and usually more for fun drives, in which the brakes are also used
But I got your point.
Originally Posted by thebeerbaron
I'd like to see some back-of-the envelope calculations of where the energy comes from, is stored, and is used. Preferably from the manufacturer, because my mental math isn't working out.
The turbine side of an exhaust driven turbo is taking energy from the exhaust and using it to drive the compressor. Simple equation.
This thing takes energy from the alternator (which is driven by the engine), stores it in a battery pack, and uses it to drive a compressor. In my math, this is just removing energy from the engine some percentage of the time, storing it (and thus losing efficiency) and then re-applying it at a later point. That's ... not appealing to me.
A pitty I don't have an english video that would explain all the things which are asked here.
Yes, you are right.
The alternator does not provide enough power for the TQAmp, that's why it is charging the "battery pack". When the TQAmp is ready and used, it stops the charging process and boost the electric motor. If you want to say so, this also releases a bit more power, since there is less use on the alternator.
"Losing efficiency" is not a point in a 20 years old car that I'm using on the track or for fun. On the track I will have it on all the time and charging is happening in the cool down laps. The boost from the battery pack lasts 4 constant minutes, that's not happening on achna speedway
I'm sure you can measuere that loss of power from charging and I would also be interessted in the data.
But if it gives me more fun, I'm good with it, if not, I tryed at least
I'd like to see some back-of-the envelope calculations of where the energy comes from, is stored, and is used. Preferably from the manufacturer, because my mental math isn't working out.
The turbine side of an exhaust driven turbo is taking energy from the exhaust and using it to drive the compressor. Simple equation.
This thing takes energy from the alternator (which is driven by the engine), stores it in a battery pack, and uses it to drive a compressor. In my math, this is just removing energy from the engine some percentage of the time, storing it (and thus losing efficiency) and then re-applying it at a later point. That's ... not appealing to me.
It's pretty much an electric supercharger. So yes, it is parasitic but the energy expended to get the additional air into the engine is still less than the additional power gained from the engine using said air.
I remember seeing this tossed around and looked up the CFM and compared it to a 2554. Long story short, it's freaking expensive vs an actual turbo. Save your money and put a proper turbo on.
I saw these on YouTube a little while back. They are neat and they do technically work. I think OP is smart enough to know it won't work as well as an actual turbo and has decided to do it anyways.
I'm interested to see the results. Mostly for kicks and giggles.
I think a Megasquirt, IAT sensor, and wideband is all you need though. I would be absolutely floored if you ran out of injector with this.
From the TORQAMP's FAQ, the motor is a 5kW unit. 5kW * 4 minutes = 20kW minute battery pack, in the magical land of simple math equations.
The charging circuitry for the TORQAMP is a 500W unit. 20kW minutes / 500W minutes = 40 minutes.
On paper, you have a 10:1 charge to discharge ratio on the unit. The NA 1.6 motor was the first number I could find - 85kW. So you use 6% of the motor's power for 10 minutes to get back 1 minute of Y% power increase.
Where on a turbo system gets you X% power increase any time you want to use it, by consuming energy that was going out the exhaust anyhow?
Different strokes for different folks, but this one makes my head hurt.
10-26-2020, 04:28 PM
1.8 electric turbo - TQAmp - from 0-100 build
). Sounds possible?
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